Not signed in (Sign In)
    •  
      CommentAuthorOhKapitan
    • CommentTimeJan 4th 2015
     
    In trying to explain this format to those new to 5-Color, there are two things that are consistently brought up -

    1) The proxy rule
    2) The relevance of the B&R list to those of Legacy, Modern, etc.

    There have been concerns about the number of proxies allowed in a deck... I know at a recent event there was a player who was not happy with the rule and out of protest, brought in a deck of nothing but proxies. This included BASIC lands. He got around the "no talking" rule by having 1 swamp in play at all times.

    There are two sides to this, one in trying to keep the "casual" side to the format and allow players to try using cards they may not ever own, and those who have been in the game for a long time and may not be happy that their investments are being "undermined." In regards to the B&R list, the only way to change or update this is to PLAY AND GET INVOLVED.

    I propose two things: Shorten the number of proxies allowed in decks for tournament play, perhaps even casual. (I would think 15-20 would suffice.) Start a serious discussion on what cards may need to be added to the B&R list, taken off, whatever.

    All in all, this is a fun format, and I think has a lot of potential to grow.

    Thanks for reading. Feel free to comment!
  1.  
    Just as a note, I feel like we might be stepping on Jeremy's toes a bit by pushing these issues so hard. I'm not sure. That being said, here's a hypothesis.

    Let's pretend we're running a vintage tournament. In 60-card vintage events, which are typically 10 proxies, they account for ~17% of the deck. If we're working from that rule, you're allowed 50 proxies - enough for three of each dual and two of each fetchland, or 12 sets of staples if you don't want to run that manabase. Just make sure that people's proxies are legal in a similar vein to vintage events. It's not hard to find guidelines for that sort of thing.

    This seems like a great way to start people, and on the other hand, if you've been collecting and have shocks/duals/fetches, it doesn't undermine your hard work - you can play a full set of power, silly rare cards like imperial recruiter, imperial seal, and grim tutor, or expensive staples like tarmogoyf, dark confidant, snapcaster mage, stoneforge mystic, mana drain, force of will, jace the mindsculptor, umezawa's jitte, etc, etc - without spending the extra cash.

    and those of us who have the big collections already? Just be happy to have someone to play with. I personally have a fairly substantive collection(though I don't own any power), and I welcome people playing proxies because it means the format can grow without worrying about the hard cap on important staples. It also allows people to try their more fun ideas without the constant bad times of being unable to cast spells, or being forced to dilute your idea with tons of card filtering and mana fixing just to get it to work.

    As for the B&R list, I think it makes the most sense to look at it from a format-wide perspective. Yes, Umezawa's Jitte might give you headaches, or you might hate losing to a entomb->reanimate-> [insert fat dude here], but 5-color decks are more flexible due to their size. Adding a couple sets of cards might seem to dilute your deck, but seeing the reclamation shaman, or tutoring up the relic of progenitus when you need it, will be well worth it in the long run. Additionally, most deck types have an answer available that barely dilutes the deck at all. Unless a card creates a deck type that completely unbalances the format, forcing players to run multiple redundant answers (parallel thoughts, battle of wits), or is inherently overpowered in the format (sundering titan), I don't think it really deserves action.
    •  
      CommentAuthorzombor
    • CommentTimeJan 5th 2015
     

    There's an agreed upon rule of 5-color that isn't in the "official rules": Don't be a Dick.

    If you bring a completely proxies 5-color deck to an event, you are a dick. Fuck off with your bullshit. If you really want to spend all that time making proxies just to "prove a point", then have fun wasting your time doing it.

    I made the "proxies allowed" rule when I revised the B&R list so that people would feel they could compete without having the cards. The idea is that they would eventually work to get those cards because the format was fun. Again, don't be a dick about it.

    One thing I could change the proxy rule with is that it could be required to be a "high quality" proxy. I.E. not a sharpie on a basic land.

    •  
      CommentAuthorJarrett
    • CommentTimeJan 5th 2015
     
    There are many things to be said about this game. Lucky Charms has a great view on 5-color as he explained above that reflects the unwritten rule that Zombor has pointed out.

    Maybe I'm beating a dead horse but...

    The debate on proxies basically comes down to few points for those against them.

    1. Don't want to lose to combos
    2. Have paid for their collections of cardboard

    Facts

    MtG is an unesscessary hobby
    A pack of MtG costs about 3.50
    Cards can cost more than 3.50 after they are opened in a pack
    Wizards of the Coast and stores that don't sell singles only profit from events and packs sold, etc
    Supply and Demand from the player base raises the cost of single mtg cards to unesscessary heights;
    Which raises quantity of sales from packs, makes people gamble (which is good for stores though)

    1. Combos exist whether or not proxies exist. Aggro, control, combo, and everything in between is a style of MtG decks. Why is it that only a combo deck get gripped about when PLENTY of other styles are also unfun to play against?
    The amount of cards in a 5-color deck severely hinders the ability and speed combo decks have to complete the combo. They still can happen but unless they happen consistently in 5-color the players that don't like combos are only ruining the fun for players that do enjoy that aspect of the game by disregarding every combo as unfair. Remember that your fun is not everyone's fun.

    2. thinking its "unfair" or "unjust" that your opponent didn't pay 400.00 for their Jace the Mind Scuplters or any other insanely overpriced mtg card, sounds like this. "Your to poor to play this game with me" I can't imagine any hobby or game group gets many new people to play with them with this attitude. 5-color to me is about "How much fun can we have for this match" not how much money can I spend on cardboard to win. Legacy, modern, and standard is there for people who wish to play that way and everyone is welcome to do that.

    Me personally I wouldn't want a set of cards I own in one box to be worth such an investment. I've made many proxies of cards I have owned and use them in my 5-color, not the real thing. They are well defined colored copies.

    1. People steal shit. Jokes on them if they take my proxies.

    2. Why should I pay more than 3.50 for a card I want to play with, which ties into...

    3. Deck building is my favorite aspect of MTG and I change my 5-color nearly every 2 weeks. I can't afford to pay for cards in the amounts that I tinker with them. Do I get the real version when I can? Yes I do.

    That's what I have to say on the subject of proxies, everyone will have an opinion which is good!
    Express it here and you'll be listened to by a group that does care about the game.

    I've noticed the more I play 5-color for fun (while providing a challenge) the less and less I care about proxies.
    •  
      CommentAuthorzombor
    • CommentTimeJan 5th 2015
     

    "Don't want to lose to combos" is about the dumbest thing I've ever heard. Managing power level of the format is what the B&R list is for, not what the proxy rule is for.

  2.  
    Nobody said the arguments were intelligent. Haha...ha...ha...

    People make me sad sometimes.