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    •  
      CommentAuthorIllusions-Go
    • CommentTimeMay 3rd 2012 edited
     
    Hi Folks,

    UPDATE: Now the Goal is Storming Out - No Trix.

    Check out the 5C Storm Deck I'm working on right now and hit me up with any comments and feedback.

    Updated: 6/30/12
    -------------------
    Red: 32
    4 Fire/Ice
    4 Rite of Flame
    4 Desperate Ritual
    4 Pyretic Ritual
    4 Seething Song
    4 Empty the Warrens
    2 Grapeshot
    2 Lightning Bolt
    1 Ancient Grudge
    1 Recoup
    R Gamble
    R Wheel

    White: 25
    4 StP
    4 Orim's Chant
    4 Tithe
    4 Sunscape Familiar
    4 Abeyance
    1 Ray of Revelation
    1 Oblation
    R E. Tutor
    R Academy Rector
    R Balance

    Green: 25
    4 Nature's Lore
    4 Elvish Spirit Guide
    4 Tinder Wall
    4 Manamorphose
    2 Reap and Sow
    1 Deconstruct
    R Sylvan Scrying
    R Rotate
    R Regrowth
    R Witness
    R ASD
    R Nos Dreams

    Black: 29
    4 Contract
    4 Duress
    4 Tainted Pact
    4 Dark Ritual
    4 Cabal Ritual
    4 Tendrils of Agony
    R Consult
    R DT
    R VT
    R Seal
    R Will

    Blue: 83
    4 FoW
    4 Remand
    4 Trinket Mage
    4 Brainstorm
    4 Preordain
    4 Ponder
    4 Dizzy Spell
    4 Impulse
    4 Peer Through Depths
    4 Cloud of Faeries
    4 Frantic Search
    4 Thirst for Knowledge
    4 Mystical Teachings
    2 FoF
    4 Allied Strategies
    4 Mind's Desire
    3 DA
    1 Quiet Speculation
    1 Ethereal Usher
    1 Chain of Vapor
    1 Hurk
    1 Rebuild
    1 Echoing Truth
    1 Future Sight
    R Personal
    R Mystical
    R Merchant
    R Ancestral
    R Walk
    R Timetwister
    R Intuition
    R Gifts
    R Tinker
    R Transmute Artifact
    R Spiral

    Artifacts: 36
    4 J. Bird
    4 Sensei's Divining Top
    4 Fellwar Stone
    4 Talisman of Dominance
    4 Mox Diamond
    4 Lotus Petal
    1 Gilded Lotus
    1 Memory Jar
    5 Moxen
    R Lotus
    R Ring
    R Crypt
    R Vault
    R Crystal Chimes (Mox Crystal)

    Lands: 70
    32 Fetches (20 Old Fetch + Misty and Scalding and Verdant Catacombs)
    22 Duals (16 Blue, 1 Tai, 1 Sav, 1 Bay, 1 Bad, 1 Scrub, 1 Plat)
    1 Basics (1 Island)
    4 City of Traitors
    4 Ancient Tomb
    4 Wasteland
    R Academy
    R LOA
    R Strip
    --------------------

    Possibles: Magma Jet, Lightning Bolt, Cloud of Fairies, Snap, Wall of Blossoms, Diabolic Intent, Infernal Tutor, Turnabout, Diminishing Returns, Nightscape Familiar
    •  
      CommentAuthorDipstik
    • CommentTimeMay 3rd 2012
     
    Trix? You're actually old enough to know what that is? I always figured you were 12.
  1.  
    Wouldn't be the first time you fucked up.

    :P
    •  
      CommentAuthorIllusions-Go
    • CommentTimeMay 3rd 2012 edited
     
    Not sure if the 5C world really understands how savage City of Traitors can be with all the green cards that put lands into play without playing land. ie..ReapSow..et al.

    City of Traitors is the stone balls.

    Not to even mention Frantic Search, TurnABOOT, Spiral, the awakening that is rude...etc.
  2.  
    Part of what makes this hybrid better than the sum of its parts is the abuse of Skull/Bargain.

    Storm likes draw. Necro is draw but needs some life gain (to guard against stalling out) and mana fixing (to cast it in the first place, read: Rituals) to help it.

    Cue Tendrils and Illusions.

    Bingo. Bango. Bongo.
    •  
      CommentAuthorDipstik
    • CommentTimeMay 4th 2012
     
    Necro is draw... on the next turn. Storm needs draw now.
  3.  
    Very true.

    Man it's like a 1 card combo though. Necro for 7, find the Illusions or the thing that finds the Illusions, Cast Illusions, Necro for 15, find the Donate or the thing that finds the Donate...

    .....or whoops there's Frantic Search and Tendrils, die.

    You think Skullclamp goes in this deck?

    Empty the Warrens for a few, Trinket Mage up the Clamp, draw a zillion?

    Seems like a bad Desire flip tho. Heh.
    •  
      CommentAuthorIllusions-Go
    • CommentTimeMay 5th 2012 edited
     
    Update for 5/5.

    -4 Skull
    -1 Zorb
    -1 Crucible

    +4 Ponder
    +2 Gilded Lotus

    Tested 3-4 goldfishes without Necro and didn't seem to miss it. Going to leave it out for now and avoid the risk. Bargain stays. Side Note: Usher can get it too although Usher is for Desire, naturally.

    -1 Ray of Revelation
    +1 Burst of Energy (Trying it out now with G Lotus 4x)

    -1 Moment's Peace
    +1 Worldly Tutor (For Rector or Sunscape, Witness rarely)

    Thinking about Remand over Evasive Action.
    •  
      CommentAuthorzombor
    • CommentTimeMay 8th 2012
     

    Necro is not a good card.

    •  
      CommentAuthorDipstik
    • CommentTimeMay 9th 2012
     
    but... but... you can drop it on turn 1 with ritual! And then draw 7... and then lose a turn earlier to aggro!
  4.  
    Turn 1 or Turn 2 Necro is still good IMO. After that, you guys have a point.

    Meh. So after cutting the Necros, not much point to running Trix. Going to take this in Storm-Only direction now.
    •  
      CommentAuthorIllusions-Go
    • CommentTimeMay 10th 2012 edited
     
    5/10 Update:

    To Storm:

    -4 Chrome Mox
    +4 Desperate Ritual

    -4 Donate
    -4 Illusions
    +4 Serum Visions
    +4 Peer Through Depths
    +1 Hurk
    +1 Rebuild

    -5 Lands
    -4 Drain
    -4 Evasive
    +4 Remand
    +2 Infernal Tutor
    +1 Divining Witch
    +1 Diabolic Intent

    -1 Bargain
    +1 Sight

    -4 Farseek
    +4 Elvish Spirit Guide
    -2 Rude
    -2 Reap and Sow
    +1 Deconstruct
    +1 Wordly Tutor
    •  
      CommentAuthorIllusions-Go
    • CommentTimeMay 14th 2012 edited
     
    Balanced some things out with the 5/14 update.

    Chrome Mox isn't good enough but I think Ancient Tomb is.

    Ethereal Usher, while nice with Wordly Tutor, is a nightmare Desire flip. He may go to 1.

    Peer Through Depths has been outstanding.

    Nos Dreams is there for Gifts Piles and with it and the Witness, I figured a Deconstruct might be gas along with the manamorphoses for getting a bunch of green out of nowhere.

    Added in a bunch of mana rocks because I really want to play up Reap and Sow for Academy. They are fixers as well as being good in the incremental game. It's easy to run out of blue in the critical turn, reapsow and rotate for the Acad shore that up.

    Running the Transmute Artifact because with mana crypt in the deck I wanted 2 ways to get rid of it if necessary and it can upgrade into Jar or Gilded, or during the big turn it makes mana with Black Lotus.

    There's 1 of each of the bounce spells in there to go with the draw sevens and increased artifact count. Ex. Hurk you, Wheel or Hurk Me, Replay, Storm Spell.

    The bounce spells do that same thing with Contract too (Captain Obvious, but probably worth noting).

    Anyone ever tried running Ignorant Bliss against Duress/Twist/Balance? Seems like an OK red card.
    •  
      CommentAuthorfrogger42
    • CommentTimeMay 20th 2012
     
    I threw up some Storm deck somewhere on these disc boards... I think Worldly Tutor's meh, but Green Pact -> E Spirit Guide, Tinder Wall, Wild Cantor stuff. Check out the post somewhere, might be a few more ideas in there for you to try.

    The build I had up there was pretty sweet, tho probably tweaked it a few more times since the last post. One of those awkward decks where you want to hold open Counterspell mana right away, get blown out after you run out of counters for their draw-7s; or risk dropping an early threat and getting swept away by Storm. Pretty viable against super-counter control, tho I didn't have any aggro built to test it against.
    HEY HEY the Miracle Wheel of Fortune smells like serious beast in storm! Guess I'll have to find 3x more somewhere...
    •  
      CommentAuthorfrogger42
    • CommentTimeMay 20th 2012
     
    And Ignorant Bliss... I know exactly what card you're talking about, 'cause I've had it in my cm/unc box since forever. I've always liked it, but honestly never, ever put it in a deck. Seems actually too tech-y, and 2 mana is still something of an investment to stall out a 1-mana Duress... also probably not terribly good when you're storming out and draw the thing. I guess it'd be pretty cute with a Wheel on the stack, but you still don't see those cards for another turn. I think it's win-more-ish.
    •  
      CommentAuthorDipstik
    • CommentTimeMay 20th 2012
     
    Miracle Wheel is TERRIBLE in storm. It's utterly unplayable if you have it in hand and can't miracle it. You can only miracle it during your DRAW STEP or your OPPONENT'S turn! The goal of storm is to build a winning hand and then go off. You never have an empty hand, and you never want to dump your full hand for a random pile of seven cards unless you're about ready to scoop anyway.

    Draw 7's are good in Storm because they can play all their mana ramp stuff, then draw more cards once their hand is empty. This can't be used like a wheel of fortune or a timetwister because you can't control when it's cast.

    The ONLY application this card could possibly have is if you have a bunch of instant mana spells and something like mystical tutor to put it on top of your library. Then you could miracle it for 2 and respond by dumping your hand for mana. Notice that the only difference between this and an actual Wheel or Timetwister in this situation is a single colorless mana.
    •  
      CommentAuthorfrogger42
    • CommentTimeMay 21st 2012
     
    Dip - why can't you just ramp it out w/ red rituals? That seems perfectly fine in Storm. I don't think this deck would ever really want to Miracle it out, you can't really ramp up during your draw step and do anything anyway. Miracle might come into play with Past in Flames, but even if it were on the list, I don't think that synergy would come into play enough to matter.
    It's at least 50x better than Diminishing Returns (which I had to run 1-2 of in Storm) as far as draw-7s go, and probably on-par with Timetwister, mostly because the U you have to get doesn't come from any of your rituals. In this list, I'd say it's much better than Thirst/ any of the 3- or even 2-mana drawers, esp if you're trying to storm up a ton. Impulse and stuff like that stinks in your hand when you're actually storming, only good for setup and snagging lands; Miracle Wheel easily plays both roles.
    •  
      CommentAuthorDipstik
    • CommentTimeMay 21st 2012
     
    Well if you're already running four of EVERY draw 7 and EVERY tutor, I suppose it might find a spot just as a 5CC sorcery. If that's the position your deck is in and you're really hard up for anything that says "discard your hand, draw 7 cards" then I suppose I have no further arguments. It wouldn't see play in any deck I built, though... 4x contract, 1 wheel, and 1 timetwister should be enough draw 7s for any storm deck.
    •  
      CommentAuthorfrogger42
    • CommentTimeMay 22nd 2012
     
    I actually like a lot of draw-7s in 5-C storm. Your opponent's counters are heavily restricted by their open mana, and it's very unlikely they're going to snag a FoW off a Wheel; so if they've got 3-mana, it's safe to say they likely can only counter one card during your storm. I think there are few counters that you run in 5-C control that go below (or over) 2 mana to play (tho some people like Envelop, which I suppose is possible to play somehow).
    And if you've got 2-3 Draw-7s in your hand, all you have to do is keep playing them until your opponent runs out of counters; at which point, you proceed to storm out. That's usually how my combo usually takes out control, as I tend only to come across a couple counters by turn 3. There are only so many runnable 2-mana counters vs. 300 cards of pure deck, and I maybe don't run 1-2 of them. I don't really consider Daze all that hot in the format, esp in control.

    <blockquote><cite>Posted By: Dipstik</cite> I suppose I have no further arguments.</blockquote>

    That may be a first from what I've seen from you. I shall proceed to quote this out of context at every available and unanticipated moment.
    •  
      CommentAuthorIllusions-Go
    • CommentTimeMay 22nd 2012 edited
     
    Girls, Girls, you're both pretty.

    Tinder Wall seems like a definite possibility. Nature's Lore is a potential cut because even though it lets you get away with keeping land light hands and works well with City of Traitors, it is a road to nowhere (read:land) during "the turn".

    Worldly Tutor is in the deck right now to get: Sunscape Familiar, Ethereal Usher, Academy Rector and every now and then E Witness. Each of those are bomb enough to keep Wordly Tutor around.

    EDIT: I see your point about Green Pact for ESG as a +1Spell +1Green during the turn.

    Thoughts on the Miracle Wheel:

    5C is too good for this card. Too many other options that aren't so situational. The Wheel effect is tempting because its just so much more powerful that Twister because it doesn't reset the graveyard. Diminishing Returns is 2 precious blue mana AND a GY reset - no bueno. These powerful effects are balanced giving your opponent a new hand. IMO the deck barely wants Twister.

    Interesting you brought up doing the miracle on the opponents turn. A playgroup I was in many years ago bounced the idea of running Quicken in Storm because all the kill spells are sorcery but most of the mana is instant. Quicken is a really cool card for 5C because of all the powerful sorceries - they think they are safe with the eot FOF and you just make mana, Quicken the Tendrils and win out of nowhere with help from their spells. Or they tap their UU at EOT to Impulse and you Quicken a Contract to get it passed the counter. I don't know, something to think about.

    Posted By: DipstikIt wouldn't see play in any deck I built, though... 4x contract, 1 wheel, and 1 timetwister should be enough draw 7s for any storm deck.

    What are your thoughts on Memory Jar 4x (and Spiral)?

    Posted By: frogger42And Ignorant Bliss... I know exactly what card you're talking about, 'cause I've had it in my cm/unc box since forever. I've always liked it, but honestly never, ever put it in a deck. Seems actually too tech-y, and 2 mana is still something of an investment to stall out a 1-mana Duress... also probably not terribly good when you're storming out and draw the thing. I guess it'd be pretty cute with a Wheel on the stack, but you still don't see those cards for another turn. I think it's win-more-ish.

    Very techy. It seems OK for the decks that like to just sit there because the interactive decks are dying to Duress/Twist/Thunderscape/Probe/Etc you. It's also randomly savage against Balance. Think you're right though - sidelines.
    •  
      CommentAuthorDipstik
    • CommentTimeMay 22nd 2012
     
    You can quote it whenever you like. When someone tells you that the sky is green because tomatos smell funny, there's nothing else to talk about. It doesn't mean I'm agreeing with you, it just means there's no further point in arguing.
    •  
      CommentAuthorfrogger42
    • CommentTimeMay 27th 2012
     
    Ill-G - Memory Jar is a total beast in that storm list I put up, b/c 5 mana isn't that tough to reach, you can set it up for next turn, and it's super-awesome with the 4x Channel. My buddy Channeled into Mem Jar -> Mem Jar 2 -> Mem Jar 3. That's pretty rare, obv, but Channel is another must counter target as it ramps all your brown requirements, which helps with almost every spell.
    Yeah, Dim Returns was a last resort. It was pretty terrible.
    As for Wheeling in general... I think in a more controlled (ie 60-card format) you give your opponent tons of cards to dig into FoW and possibly other free counters. I've actually found with 5-C that my opponent can only play 1 counter if they have 2-3 mana open, 2 if 4 or more. So whenever they see a Wheel, they have to counter it (or lose their counter and possb not grab another), and then throw down another Wheel/Contract to follow up, and there's < 5% chance of them countering anything else. As long as your Wheels effectively put you into Storm mode, your opponent should counter the heck out of them. Chant and stuff is good too.

    Dip - "I suppose I have no further arguments." Thanks for the thought.
  5.  
    6/29 Update:

    -1 Fire Ice
    -2 Ignite Memories
    +3 Magma Jet

    -4 Wall of Omens
    +4 Abeyance

    -1 Ethereal Usher
    +1 DA

    -3 Jar
    +3 Infernal Contract
  6.  
    Dizzy Spell is fine for getting CFB but *so bad* in a Desire Flip.

    Cloud of Faeries is performing nicely.