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    •  
      CommentAuthorSoapbox
    • CommentTimeDec 22nd 2011 edited
     
    Updated decklist of my blue based control variant. (01/09/2012)
    Houserules: -> No ante cards! -> No proxies!

    ----------------------------------------
    [25] Red
    [4] Creatures

    R Gamble
    1 Ancient Grudge
    3 Lightning Helix
    4 Lightning Bolt
    4 Fire / Ice
    4 Magma Jet
    4 Firespout

    4 Flametongue Kavu
    ----------------------------------------
    [25] Green
    [14] Creatures

    R Regrowth
    1 Roar of the Wurm
    1 Life from the Loam
    4 Krosan Grip
    4 Pernicious Deed

    R Eternal Witness
    1 Genesis
    4 Mystic Snake
    4 Trygon Predator
    4 Uktabi Orangutan
    ----------------------------------------
    [25] White
    [9] Creatures

    R Enlightend Tutor
    R Balance
    1 Ray of Revelation
    1 Akromas Vengeance
    4 Wrath of God
    4 Swords to Plowshares
    4 Eladamris Call

    R Academy Rector
    4 Aven Mindcensor
    4 Kitchen Finks
    ----------------------------------------
    [25] Black
    [4] Creatures

    R Demonic Tutor
    R Vampiric Tutor
    R Demonic Consultation
    R Yawgmoths Will
    1 Entomb
    4 Duress
    4 Shadow of Doubt
    4 Tainted Pact
    4 Vindicate

    4 Shadowmage Infiltrator
    ----------------------------------------
    [24] Artifacts
    [5] Creatures

    R Sol Ring
    R Isochron Szeptre
    R Crucible of the World
    4 Darksteel Ingot
    4 Sensei's Divining Top
    4 Nihil Spellbomb
    4 Engineered Explosives

    1 Inkwell Leviathan
    4 Etched Oracle
    ----------------------------------------
    [72] Blue
    [16] Creatures

    R Mystical Tutor
    R Personal Tutor
    R Intuition
    R Gifts Ungiven
    R Tinker
    1 Future Sight
    1 Memory's Journey
    1 Deep Analysis
    4 Quiet Speculation
    4 Brainstorm
    4 Impulse
    4 Stifle
    4 Force of Will
    4 Counterspell
    4 Evasive Action
    4 Remand
    4 Cryptic Command
    4 Counterbalance
    4 Fact or Fiction
    4 Mystical Teachings

    4 Venser Shaper Savant
    4 Snapscaster Mage
    4 Ninja of the Deep Hours
    4 Trinket Mage
    ----------------------------------------
    [196] Total
    [52] Creatures
    ----------------------------------------
    [104] Lands

    4 Tundra
    1 Tropical Island
    1 Volcanic Island
    1 Underground Sea
    2 Savanah
    2 Taiga
    1 Plateu
    1 Bayou
    1 Scrubland

    4 Windswept Heath
    4 Polluted Delta
    4 Flooded Strand
    4 Wooded Foothills
    4 Misty Rainforest
    4 Scalding Tarn
    4 Verdant Catacombs

    1 Watery Grave
    1 Overgrown Tomb
    1 Steam Vents

    4 Teramorphic Expanse
    4 Evolving Wilds

    4 Seacoast Citadell
    4 Arcane Sanctum
    4 Crumbling Necropolis

    4 Exotic Orchard
    4 Tolaria West
    4 Krosan Verge
    4 Mishras Factory
    1 Maze of Ith
    1 Stripmine
    1 Wasteland
    1 Volraths Stronghold
    1 Bojuka Bog
    1 Karakas
    1 City of Brass

    2 Mountain
    2 Swamp
    2 Plains
    5 Forest
    5 Island
    ----------------------------------------
    [300] Total
    [52] Creatures

    -----> start of original post <-----

    Would like receive some critism and suggestions on how to improve this Deck.

    25 Green
    1 Eternal Wittness
    4 Trygon Predator
    4 Kitchen Finks
    3 Mystic Snake
    4 Simic Skyswallower
    4 Krosan Grip
    1 Regrowth
    1 Sylvan Scrying
    1 Life from the Loam
    1 Crop Rotation
    1 Eladamris Call

    25 White
    1 Academy Rector
    4 Aven Mindcensor
    1 Dispelers Capsule
    3 Eladamris Call
    4 Swords to Plowshares
    4 Path to Exile
    4 Wrath of God
    1 Balance
    1 Enlightend Tutor
    1 Invincible Hymn
    1 Vindicate

    25 Red
    4 Lightning Bolt
    4 Fire / Ice
    4 Lightning Helix
    4 Ancient Grudge
    4 Firespout
    3 Red Elemental Blast
    1 Gamble
    1 Maelstrom Nexus

    25 Black
    4 Tainted Pact
    4 Pernicious Deed
    4 Duress
    4 Shadow of Doubt
    3 Vindicate
    1 Damnation
    1 Demonic Tutor
    1 Vampiric Tutor
    1 Yawgmoths Will
    1 Demonic Consultation
    1 Executioneers Capsule

    31 Artifacts
    4 Etched Oracle
    4 Mind Stone
    4 Fellwar Stone
    4 Darksteel Ingot
    4 Senseis Divining Top
    1 Sol Ring
    1 Isochron Szepter
    1 Crucible of Worlds
    4 Tormods Crypt
    2 Engineered Explosives
    1 Scull Clamp
    1 Oblivion Stone

    66 Blue
    4 Trinket Mage
    4 Snapcaster Mage
    1 Inkwell Leviathan
    4 Brainstorm
    4 Ponder
    4 Impulse
    4 Stifle
    4 Voidslime
    4 Counterspell
    4 Force of Will
    4 Evasive Action
    4 Remand
    3 Cryptic Command
    4 Counterbalance
    1 Future Sight
    4 Mystical Teachings
    4 Fact or Fiction
    1 Mystical Tutor
    1 Intuition
    1 Gifts Ungiven
    1 Tinker
    1 Time Spiral

    103 Lands
    4 Seacoast Citadell
    4 Arcane Sanctum
    4 Crumbling Necropolis
    1 Wooded Foothills
    3 Flooded Strand
    2 Polluted Delta
    3 Windswetp Heath
    4 Terramorphic Expanse
    4 Exotic Orchard
    4 Tundra
    1 Underground Sea
    1 Tropical Island
    1 Volcanic Island
    1 Scrubland
    1 Plateau
    2 Taiga
    2 Savannah
    1 Watery Grave
    1 Overgrown Tomb
    1 Steam Vents
    3 City of Brass
    1 Underground River
    4 Mishras Factory
    1 Wasteland
    1 Stripmine
    1 Volraths Stronghold
    1 Maze of Ith
    4 Krosan Verge
    4 Gemstone Mine
    1 Bojuka Bog
    3 Swamp
    4 Treetop Village
    1 Karakas
    3 Plains
    2 Mountain
    14 Island
    10 Forest
  1.  
    Teachings is such a bomb in 5C.

    Cards I'm kinda meh on:

    Voidslime
    Time Spiral
    Both Capsules (as you mention)
    Simic Sky Swallower
    Invincible Hymn (haha)
    Maelstrom Nexus (fun card, don't blame ya)

    Suggestions:
    Tog
    Decree of Justice
    Thirst for Knowledge
    Allied Strategies/Opportunity

    Trinket Mage should be getting Sol Ring or Top. Explosives is an Emergency Move Only.
    Have to mention some other cards that work well with what you have in there already. You're running Snake, Finks, Trinks, and Tiago. Ninja of the Deep Hours and Jellyfish (Man'o'war) work really well with those cards...and then you could go viridian shaman...depending on how deep you wanted that theme.

    Nice deck. GL.
    •  
      CommentAuthorSoapbox
    • CommentTimeDec 22nd 2011 edited
     
    Hi, just came back from my gameing evening. Got to say, the Deck performed quite well, over the evening i won 3 Beer. -> Profit

    Duress was awesome, such a versatile Spell which stops things before they happen. (need to add 4x Thoughtseize, damn expensive)

    I actually didnt miss the quiet speculation engine.

    I felt like i had enough Creatures, was running a total of 46.

    Maelstrom Nexus was indeed fun. (got problems with my red color, dont own lots of red cards) think i should cut those lightning helixes, but dont know with what to replace. (got wheel of fortune, recoups, rakavolvers, arc soggers and fireballs)
    maybe a nice red/blue hybrid card would be cool, which fits my control strategy, any suggestions ?

    Holy Crap i played against 4x Ruination, 4x Tsunami, 4x Destructive Flow, 4x Fulminator Mage, 4x Avalanche Riders. (Fucking non-basic hate) (any idea whats good against this, instead of playing basic lands ?)

    think i can cut 1x damnation, think i will go with akromas vengeance instead.

    My Manabase, was really shaky. I ordered 4x Misty Rainforest and 4x Scalding Tarn from Kanada and the US via ebay. I think they will help. I guess before spending more money on random stuff i will get addtional 3x Tropical Island, 3x Underground Sea, and 3x Volcanic Island, completing my Playsets. Everything stands and falls with the Manabase i'd say.

    I would like to cut those 4 darksteel ingots, and find something appropriate with 2 cmc or less, already running Felwarstone and Mindstone. Any Suggestions? Would Mox Diamond be the first Choice, behind those unaffordable moxes and lotus?

    @ illusions:

    i guess with tog you mean psychatog ?!
    Ninja of the Deep Hours looks really nice.
    ------------------------------------------------------------
    hardcore play of the evening from my enemy:
    necropotence into tutor into invincible hymn into draw 100 into replenish into praetor's counsel.
    i got to mention this, hell we laughed a lot.
    •  
      CommentAuthorIllusions-Go
    • CommentTimeDec 24th 2011 edited
     
    Posted By: SoapboxHi, just came back from my gameing evening. Got to say, the Deck performed quite well, over the evening i won 3 Beer. -> Profit


    WINNING.

    Posted By: SoapboxDuress was awesome, such a versatile Spell which stops things before they happen. (need to add 4x Thoughtseize, damn expensive)


    Well yeah Duress is good.

    Posted By: SoapboxI actually didnt miss the quiet speculation engine.


    Maybe not in those games but tutorable draw 3 (which is a roundabout way for what it is) is very strong. It gets all your utility in the game for very cheap (grudge, ray, journey) or can draw a ton of cards and dig for a bomb (deep, deep, flash of insight). They keep printing decent flashback cards making it better and better...all for 1U.

    Posted By: SoapboxI felt like i had enough Creatures, was running a total of 46.


    In the games that you won, what creatures went all the way? How was Trygon Predator?

    Posted By: SoapboxMaelstrom Nexus was indeed fun. (got problems with my red color, dont own lots of red cards) think i should cut those lightning helixes, but dont know with what to replace. (got wheel of fortune, recoups, rakavolvers, arc soggers and fireballs) maybe a nice red/blue hybrid card would be cool, which fits my control strategy, any suggestions ?


    Electrolyze is a nice removal spell. Invoke the Firemind puts the Fireball and Braingeyser effect together. Magma Jet is the 5C Control go-to red card.

    Posted By: SoapboxHoly Crap i played against 4x Ruination, 4x Tsunami, 4x Destructive Flow, 4x Fulminator Mage, 4x Avalanche Riders. (Fucking non-basic hate) (any idea whats good against this, instead of playing basic lands ?)


    LFTL, Sacred Ground.

    Posted By: Soapboxthink i can cut 1x damnation, think i will go with akromas vengeance instead.


    Akroma's Vengence and Deed do not work well with your Mana Rocks. Balance does. Considering these kind of synergies is important. Where is the point that you change Mindstone and Fellwar into Farseek and Nature's Lore?

    Posted By: SoapboxI would like to cut those 4 darksteel ingots, and find something appropriate with 2 cmc or less, already running Felwarstone and Mindstone. Any Suggestions? Would Mox Diamond be the first Choice, behind those unaffordable moxes and lotus?


    See above, Ingot was the one thing that survived Deed/Vengence and gives any color without restrictions, then again, it's 3 not 2. It may not be accomplishing what you need early enough. The Talismans from Mirrodin Block are available at 2.

    Posted By: Soapbox@ illusions:

    i guess with tog you mean psychatog ?!
    Ninja of the Deep Hours looks really nice.
    ------------------------------------------------------------
    hardcore play of the evening from my enemy:
    necropotence into tutor into invincible hymn into draw 100 into replenish into praetor's counsel.
    i got to mention this, hell we laughed a lot.


    Yes, Dr. Teeth himself.

    Haha Nice. Necro, Hymn has (d)evolved since '95. ;P
    •  
      CommentAuthorSoapbox
    • CommentTimeDec 26th 2011 edited
     
    Im using my sparetime to think about your suggestions and redoing a decklist.
    I would like to ask you what would you run along with 4x Quiet Speculations.

    I thought about:

    3x Roar of the Wurm (not sure here, maybe one is enough or maybe none)
    4x Ancient Grudge (one should be enough, but as you know im quite short on red cards)
    1x Ray of Revelation
    1x Memory's Journey
    3x Deep Analysis (maybe just 2, and if there is no utility needed while resolving quiet spec i could go 1 roar 2 deep analysis ??)
    4x Mystical Teachings (well not really a target for quiet spec)
    1x Momentary Blink (very situational, but can retrigger any CiP-Dude)
    •  
      CommentAuthorIllusions-Go
    • CommentTimeDec 28th 2011 edited
     
    You may find this interesting (on flashback)...

    http://www.wizards.com/Magic/Magazine/Article.aspx?x=mtg/daily/td/173

    Start at your anticipated victory condition against each archtype and work back from there to inform card choices. My take is that you need more raw draw and more mid-range CIP guys that work within the theme you already have going.
    •  
      CommentAuthorSoapbox
    • CommentTimeDec 29th 2011 edited
     
    Hi again, so today i put some effort in redoing my Decklist. And i just realised my old list just had 34 Creatures, not 46.
    I got something wrong with my Excel Spreadsheat.

    [25] Red
    [4] Creatures
    4 Ancient Grudge
    4 Flametongue Kavu (as you said, more midrange cip dudes)
    4 Magma Jet (as you said, the 5c control red card)
    4 Fire / Ice
    4 Lightning Helix (maybe i should change this for lightning bolt to smooth cmc)
    4 Red Elemental Blast
    1 Gamble

    [25] Black
    [0] Creatures
    1 Demonic Tutor
    1 Vampiric Tutor
    1 Yawgmoths Will
    4 Tainted Pact
    4 Duress
    4 Vindicate
    4 Damnation (combined with wrath of god maybe a bit to much sweeping)
    4 Shadow of Doubt
    2 Pernicious Deed

    [25] White
    [9] Creatures
    1 Ray of Revelation
    4 Kitchen Finks
    4 Aven Mindcensor
    1 Academy Rector (not sure about him, he can only find future sight or deed, and i can only wrath / damnation him)
    1 Enlightened Tutor
    1 Balance
    4 Swords to Plowshares
    4 Path to Exile (would may be cutable, but i really like to handle dudes the solid way)
    1 Eladamris Call
    4 Wrath of God (combined with damnation maybe a bit to much sweeping)

    [25] Green
    [5] Creatures
    3 Roar of the Wurm
    4 Mystic Snake
    1 Eternal Witness
    1 Crop Rotation
    1 Sylvan Scrying
    1 Regrowth
    4 Kodamas Reach (swaped from 2 cmc fixing to this, helps me playing around the non-basic hate i face a lot)
    4 Cultivate (swaped from 2 cmc fixing to this, helps me playing around the non-basic hate i face a lot)
    1 Life from the Loam
    2 Pernicious Deed
    3 Eladamris Call

    [23] Artifacts
    [4] Creatures
    4 Etched Oracle
    4 Senseis Divining Top
    4 Engineered Explosives
    4 Darksteel Ingot (as you said survives deed)
    4 Nihil Spellbomb (added this instead of tormods crypt for the cantipping, prply not as good as crypt)
    1 Crucible of the Worlds
    1 Isochron Szeptre
    1 Sol Ring

    [78] Blue
    [17] Creatures
    3 Deep Analysis (i decided to go with 3, so i can find 3 with quiet spec and it serves as raw draw when played from hand)
    1 Memory's Journey
    4 Quiet Speculation
    4 Snapcaster Mage
    4 Ninja of the Deep Hours (as mentioned, i will order them)
    4 Vendilion Clique (instead of trygon predator, it has flash flying and a cip abilitiy, theres nothing wrong i guess. i will order it)
    4 Trinket Mage
    1 Inkwell Leviathan
    1 Mystical Tutor
    1 Personal Tutor (will order one)
    1 Inuition
    1 Gifts Ungiven
    1 Tinker
    4 Brainstorm
    4 Ponder (maybe i should play Impulse over Ponder cause its instant)
    4 Mystical Teachings
    4 Fact or Fiction
    4 Future Sight
    4 Force of Will
    4 Counterspell
    4 Evasive Action
    4 Remand
    4 Cryptic Command
    4 Counterbalance
    4 Stifle

    Total Creatures: 39 (not counting those 3 Roar of the Wurm)
    Total Cards: 201

    Thoughts and Issues:
    201 Cards is to much, having space for only 99 Lands will result in mana srewness, and losing.
    I really dont know what to cut to make room for lands and still fullfilling color requirements. Please help!

    As you saw i changed fixing to 3 CMC accelerating to 4 Mana / prply 5 Mana on turn 4. I guess accelerate to 3 on turn 2, prply having 4 Mana on turn 3, and go of with WoG / Damnation, or drawing with Fact or Fiction / Deep Analysis would fit this deck better, dont you think ? There are 44 Cards with CMC 4 and only 4 with CMC 5. And even if id dont get to drop the 4th Land on turn 3, i could cast a 3 CMC Dude, which i have plenty of.
    I could go 4x Farseek, 4x Natures Lore, 4x Wayfarers Bauble to achieve this, and even add 4x Rampant Growth. If 12x fixing is not enough.

    Now i rely on green manasources for fixing, while not having full playsets of duals and fetchies, this may be hard to aquire while still beeing in tune with having 2 or 3 blue sources available for Cryptic Command, Counterspell, Future Sight, Vendilion Clique, Mystic Snake etc.

    To much sweeping ? (4x Deed, 4x Damnation, 4x WoG)
    Is 12x fixing / acceleration enough ?
    I couldnt find room for my Krosan Grips :-(

    Just to mention i got rid of those Capsules, Firespouts, Simic Sky Swallowers, Memnotic Nexus, Voidslimes, Invincible Hymn, Demonic Consultation (as i am not a combo deck).

    So long ... Soapbox
    •  
      CommentAuthorfrogger42
    • CommentTimeDec 31st 2011
     
    Hi Soapbox, some thoughts on your build:
    I generally go with 1x of each target for Quiet Spec. Maybe 2x Roar is better, but if you end up getting the card in hand, it's pretty un-boss, as it doesn't even pitch to FoW. Mystical Teachings is neat, but I think it's pretty mana intensive, so I'd probably just run 1 to tutor for with QS. I dunno. Deep Anal is a bolt to your dome, which you often don't want 3x when you face aggressive decks.
    As for your mana base, I think running a minimum of 1x of each dual, and replacing the rest with painlands should suffice. Mostly. It's super-important to get the 40 fetches, I feel, as these cards basically can't be replaced. When you get your land base down, then you'll basically not need to run things like Kodama's Reach, maybe not even the Darksteel Ingot, though it is pretty nice. Deed... is good, definitely, and it's probably a good choice to run it if you're not going to proxy Power 9 or anything. I run Mox Diamonds in my build, which means I can't do Deed.
    Firespout is a total beast! Play it, please! Smashes aggro pretty hefty, and it comes down a turn earlier than WoG, and less color-intensive. Demonic Consultation should stay, too, as it snags Contract from Below pretty often. That's all you need to name with it.
    Bolt is a must, over Path to Exile even. PtE ramps and fixes for your opponent, which often isn't that great a trade for you. Especially when you just needed to stop that blasted Nacatl.
    If you want more mana fixing, you could (eventually) get Knight of the Reliquary. With all those lands (B Bog, Maze of Ith) it seems a good idea to do some of that stuff instant speed. (I'd probably drop half of them until you get Knight in there.) But you'll need duals or shocklands for him to come online... Vedalken Shackles is great, too, but same problem. Something to keep in mind for the future if you decide to proxy up.
    Tolaria West also fixes, and provides a U land if you need it. 4x, definitely.

    Let me also say the Ninja is complete awesome. I've kept wanting to play him so bad, but I moved over to Planeswalkers for threats instead, so my creature count is lower. Makes it hard to Ninja the dude in, as it's a bad idea to hardcast the guy. Urg.
    PW'ers to consider: Tezz -> Nevy's Disk (+ proxy up a Time Vault), Ajani V. (better than FTK), Elspeth, K.E.... Jace, TMS... All the guys except Jace are relatively affordable. Maybe Jace 1.0 isn't that bad, even, haven't tried him, though. They all survive WoGs and Deeds, definitely.

    Last thought: I took out Duress for Countersquall. Tempos, stops Flash/Cascade/Other combo decks, and pitches to FoW/Misdirection. These is cheap, too.
    •  
      CommentAuthorSoapbox
    • CommentTimeJan 2nd 2012 edited
     
    Well, happy new year and thanks for the Input. I redid the decklist again, to reflect the input given by frogger.

    [25] Red
    [4] Creatures

    4 Ancient Grudge
    1 Gamble
    4 Lightning Bolt
    4 Fire / Ice
    4 Magma Jet
    4 Firespout
    4 Flametongue Kavu


    [25] Green
    [13] Creatures

    1 Roar of the Wurm
    1 Regrowth
    1 Sylvan Scrying
    1 Crop Rotation
    1 Life from the Loam
    1 Eternal Witness
    4 Mystic Snake
    4 Knight of the Reliquary (will buy)
    4 Trygon Predator
    4 Krosan Grip
    3 Pernicous Deed


    [25] White
    [9] Creatures

    1 Ray of Revelation
    1 Enlightend Tutor
    1 Balance
    1 Academy Rector
    4 Aven Mindcensor
    4 Kitchen Finks
    4 Wrath of God
    4 Swords to Plowshares
    4 Eladamris Call
    1 Invincible Hymn (maybe go acromas vengeance or decree of justice)


    [25] Black
    [0] Creatures

    1 Demonic Tutor
    1 Vampiric Tutor
    1 Demonic Consultation
    1 Yawgmoths Will
    1 Pernicious Deed
    4 Shadow of Doubt
    4 Countersquall (will buy)
    4 Duress
    4 Tainted Pact
    4 Vindicate


    [72] Blue
    [16] Creatures

    4 Quiet Speculation
    1 Memorie's Journey (will buy)
    1 Deep Analysis
    1 Mystical Tutor
    1 Personal Tutor (found one in the tradebinder of a friend, YEAH!)
    1 Intuition
    1 Gifts Ungiven
    1 Tinker
    4 Vendilion Clique (will buy)
    4 Snapscaster Mage
    4 Ninja of the Deep Hours (will buy)
    4 Trinket Mage
    4 Force of Will
    4 Counterspell
    4 Evasive Action
    4 Remand
    4 Cryptic Command
    4 Stifle
    4 Counterbalance
    4 Fact or Fiction
    4 Mystical Teachings
    4 Brainstorm
    4 Impulse
    1 Future Sight

    [24] Artifacts
    [5] Creatures

    4 Darksteel Ingot
    1 Sol Ring
    4 Etched Oracle
    1 Isochron Szeptre
    1 Crucible of the World
    4 Sensei's Divining Top
    4 Nihil Spellbomb
    4 Engineered Explosives
    1 Inkwell Leviathan

    [104] Lands

    4 Tundra
    2 Tropical Island (will buy 1)
    1 Volcanic Island
    1 Underground Sea
    2 Savanah
    2 Taiga
    1 Plateu
    1 Bayou
    1 Scrubland
    4 Windswept Heath (will complete my set)
    4 Polluted Delta (will complete my set)
    4 Flooded Strand (will complete my set)
    4 Wooded Foothills (will complete my set)
    4 Misty Rainforest
    4 Scalding Tarn
    4 Verdant Catacombs (will buy)
    1 Watery Grave
    1 Overgrown Tomb
    1 Steam Vents
    4 Teramorphic Expanse
    4 Evolving Wilds (will buy)
    4 Seacoast Citadell
    4 Arcane Sanctum
    4 Crumbling Necropolis
    4 Exotic Orchard
    4 Reflecting Pool (will buy)
    4 Mishras Factory
    4 Tolaria West (will buy)
    1 Maze of Ith
    1 Stripmine
    1 Wasteland
    1 Volraths Stronghold
    1 Bojuka Bog
    1 Karakas

    2 Mountain
    2 Swamp
    2 Plains
    5 Forest
    5 Island

    Total: 300
    Creatures: 47

    @frogger:
    -> Do you think Knight of the Religuary will work with this new Manabase ?
    -> Well i didn't cut Duress, but i guess it's okay like this! not?
    -> I reincluded Firespout and did cut Damnation for it.
    -> Mystical Teachings is (in my opinion) actually a card you want to hardcast because it's cheaper, and flashback lateron suddenly in an endstep of your opponent. It pitches to FoW, and can still be used. I stay at 4 copies of them.
    -> Planeswalkers, surely is a very good option. But i will spend my money into completing the manabase first. Jace TMS is properply the one i'd go for first.

    @illusions:
    -> there is actually not more raw draw in the deck now than before with the first decklist. what do you think of replacing impulse with think twice for more drawing ?
  2.  
    Hi Soapbox:

    Mystical Teachings really shines when played with CfB and Power because it gets Mystical Tutor -> Any Broken Sorcery (CfB, Balance, DT (into Strip/Crux/Fastbond), Walk, Mind Twist, Loam) or Ancestral, or FoW, or any counter or removal spell). In your deck, it can get Fact or Fiction, Mystic Snake/ Tiago, ET, or a less good Mystical Tutor. Still...it's plenty good to stay in.

    Knight of the Reliquary should be Uktabi Organgutan and Countersqual (so bad) should be Johnny Magic (ShadowMage Infiltrator). Randomly, Akroma's Vengence (Disk You) is a fine card for 5-color.

    Some other cards to think about are Manowar and Genesis and the relationship that your sweep (Wrath, Deed, Firespout) has with your win condition (men).

    I like the latest version more than the second version - 4 Future Sight was janky.
    •  
      CommentAuthorfrogger42
    • CommentTimeJan 2nd 2012
     
    I really like the Nihil Spellbomb x4, and for some reason I can't figure out how to run that in my deck. It's probably a weakness in my build.
    Illusions is right, Future Sight x4 is pretty slow, and loses to counters/ Ray of Revelation. The other cards I see that could get the axe are Stifle (it stops a fetchland early turns, late turns stops an activation by a Planeswalker??) and Voidslime. I prefer Absorb over it, though I don't know if you need the green slot off of it. 3 life means you stop the card you're countering plus a lightning bolt, ie card advantage.
    I wouldn't run Knight of the Reliquary until you get a sizable # of duals/shocklands. But he's relatively cheap right now, prolly only $6-8, and is super-playable in Legacy and Modern, so it's not like he'll get any cheaper. Worth the investment right now, but you're probably best off shoring up your mana base before you put him in the deck.
    I always have a fondness for Court Hussar. I'd love to see him Ninjutsued. Or however you spell it. But yeah, add a Genesis, probably some Sakura-Tribe Elders and you should be cookin'.
    (Elder doesn't have the CiP effect, but he's unbelievable! Blocker + dude, 2-for-1 against not Sudden Shock removal, and mana ramp. The best $.05 you're going to spend for your deck.)
    I used to run Panglacial Wurm. He's good in a budget deck. So's Yavimaya Elder.
    If you're going to get a Planeswalker, your best $$ is on Tezzeret the Seeker. He's like $6, but you should really proxy 1 Time Vault. I do, not like I'm going to play Vintage ever.

    Stoneforge Mystic is purdy cheap (like $6 ea). I'd consider cutting Finks for him. The equipment goes against Deed and Ninja, but it allows you a cheap threat on the table where you're only going to lose 1 guy to WoG. In fact, if you WoG your Skullclamped CiP dude, you should have a big ole grin on your face. Tezz also seeks out most Equip, too.

    And last note on the mana base: I looooove Thawing Glaciers. I run 4, b/c it's a beast against control. Dust Bowl is super hot, too, and worth the 4x. They're fairly cheapish, and uber-combo together. I don't think the Sylvan Scrying and Crop Rotation help you enough (no Tolarian Academy/ Library of Alexandria) to warrant spending the mana on them.

    Good luck with the deck, and just get in a ton of games to figure out what works for your play style.
    •  
      CommentAuthorfrogger42
    • CommentTimeJan 2nd 2012
     
    Oh yeah, Helix is incredible. If your manabase can support it, keep it in. Another 2-for-1 against aggro, and on a Scepter it dominates. I run Ajani V because he's a crummy Helix, plus he eats an attacker. Never underestimate the extra life a Helix/Batterskull/Absorb can give you when you're playing control, esp against aggro.
    •  
      CommentAuthorSoapbox
    • CommentTimeJan 2nd 2012 edited
     
    Hell it's crazy so much input for me! thanks a lot. I'd made changes according to the last posts of illusions and frogger. And as soon as i am back from france (holidays) i will update the first post with the latest deck list for sure.

    @illusions
    -> playing orangutan and man-o-war somehow lets me sparkel :-) so in they go.
    sadly i must abandon vendilon clique then, cause i dont find room for man-o-war elsewise do you really think its a good idea? i mean i can imagine retriggering my cip-dudes, i can imagine stalling the enemy and i can imagine boucing the only blocker, attacking with my not flying cip dude, ninjitsuing the ninja in. but the clique seems so strong with flash flying beeing 3/1 and having a cip abilitiy which destroys the enemy hand, or cycles me a card deeper into my deck. all in one card what else can i cut in blue ???
    -> mystical teachings often end up finding creatures with flash in the old version of my deck. you play it you flashback it, and you found a mindcensor and snake. which already helped me a lot. i guess finding a clique would be nice too :-p in an envenrionment where nobody plays power or contract it's still stong yeah.
    -> what do you think of the quiet speculation engine as it is now ? (1x Ancient Grudge, 1x Roar of the Wurm, 1x Ray of Revelation, 1x Memory's Journey, 1x Deep Analysis, 4x Mystical Teachings).

    @frogger
    -> yeah helix was always really good for me, even hitting some in the face with it, seems to be strong -> you loose 3 i gain 3, sums up to 6.
    -> stoneforge mystic, surely is strong but i dont know what to cut to play viable equipments. (batterskull, jitte, etc.) Wait he's really fucking cheap in terms of $€$ after the ban, i could really go for him over clique and cutting some crypts and explosives for the equipments.
    -> i am aware of the fact that tezzert + time vault may be win. and i have 4 tezzert lying arround here. but we dont play proxies, so id either spent ~ € 200 on time vault or leave it :-)
    -> Planeswalkerwise i have 4x Garruk Wildspeaker lying around here, he was quite strong when i played him. Accelerating, and bringing in dudes after a sweep. But im already at UUU and WW, going GG too is maybe not a good idea in terms of playability.
    -> im not sure with nihil spellbomb, i replaced it for tormods crypt again so i can find crypt explosives or land with tolaria west.
    edith says: oh shit i just realized tolaria west can find me a bojuka bog, i reverse my statement :-)
    -> in my metagame stifle does a lot of stuff, it stifles anhialator, fetchies, strip/wasteland, pattern of rebirth, cip-dudes (auratouched mage), screws up recurring nightmare, deed ... thats the first few things which come to my mind.

    @both
    -> genesis is a good call, im just not sure if you mean i should play 1 or 4. so i have 1 lying arround here, in it goes alongside with the only entomb i own. 4 would be strong as well i think, i mean its 4/4 and may not be blocked to death cause your enemy dont want him do be in the graveyard. Or it may get sweeped away from me for fun and profit (recurring oracle since 2004).

    -1 Crop Rotation
    -1 Sylvan Scrying
    -4 Vendilion Clique
    -4 Countersquall
    -3 Ancient Grudge
    -1 FTK
    -1 Invincible Hymn
    -4 Knight of the Reliquary
    edith says: no -4 Nihil Spellbomb

    +4 Man-o-War
    +4 Oktabi Orangutan
    +1 Genesis
    +1 Entomb
    +4 Shadowmage Infiltrator
    +1 Akromas Vengeance
    +4 Lightning Helix
    edith says: no +4 Tormods Crypt

    New list:

    25 Red
    3 Creatures

    1 Ancient Grudge
    1 Gamble
    4 Lightning Bolt
    4 Fire / Ice
    4 Magma Jet
    4 Firespout
    4 Lightning Helix
    3 Flametongue Kavu

    25 Green
    14 Creatures

    1 Roar of the Wurm
    1 Regrowth
    1 Life from the Loam
    4 Krosan Grip
    1 Genesis
    1 Eternal Witness
    4 Mystic Snake
    4 Trygon Predator
    4 Oktabi Orangutan
    4 Pernicious Deed

    25 White
    9 Creatures

    1 Ray of Revelation
    1 Enlightend Tutor
    1 Balance
    1 Academy Rector
    4 Aven Mindcensor
    4 Kitchen Finks
    4 Wrath of God
    4 Swords to Plowshares
    4 Eladamris Call
    1 Akromas Vengeance

    25 Black
    4 Creatures

    1 Demonic Tutor
    1 Vampiric Tutor
    1 Demonic Consultation
    1 Yawgmoths Will
    1 Entomb
    4 Duress
    4 Shadow of Doubt
    4 Shadowmage Infiltrator
    4 Tainted Pact
    4 Vindicate

    72 Blue
    16 Creatures

    4 Quiet Speculation
    1 Memory's Journey
    1 Deep Analysis
    1 Mystical Tutor
    1 Personal Tutor
    1 Intuition
    1 Gifts Ungiven
    1 Tinker
    4 Man-o-War
    4 Snapscaster Mage
    4 Ninja of the Deep Hours
    4 Trinket Mage
    4 Force of Will
    4 Counterspell
    4 Evasive Action
    4 Remand
    4 Cryptic Command
    4 Stifle
    4 Counterbalance
    4 Fact or Fiction
    4 Mystical Teachings
    4 Brainstorm
    4 Impulse
    1 Future Sight

    24 Artifacts
    5 Creatures

    4 Darksteel Ingot
    1 Sol Ring
    4 Etched Oracle
    1 Isochron Szeptre
    1 Crucible of the World
    4 Sensei's Divining Top
    4 Nihil Spellbomb
    4 Engineered Explosives
    1 Inkwell Leviathan

    Total: 196
    Creatures: 51
    •  
      CommentAuthorSoapbox
    • CommentTimeJan 3rd 2012
     
    what are the moves you do with knight of the reliquary ?

    sac a land -> get a fetchie -> find a dual; thats what seems pretty obvious (+2/+2).
    or sac a land -> get a land which answers current stuff going on (maze of ith; bojuka bog; karakas; stripmine)

    am i right ?
    •  
      CommentAuthorDipstik
    • CommentTimeJan 4th 2012
     
    sac a land -> strip mine
    sac a land -> wasteland
    repeat as necessary
    •  
      CommentAuthorSoapbox
    • CommentTimeJan 4th 2012
     
    looks like he can also accerlerate you by:

    tapping land for mana -> sac -> tap fetched land for mana.
    or finding a krosan verge, should accerlerate too.
    •  
      CommentAuthorIllusions-Go
    • CommentTimeJan 4th 2012 edited
     
    @illusions
    -> playing orangutan and man-o-war somehow lets me sparkel :-) so in they go.
    sadly i must abandon vendilon clique then, cause i dont find room for man-o-war elsewise do you really think its a good idea? i mean i can imagine retriggering my cip-dudes, i can imagine stalling the enemy and i can imagine boucing the only blocker, attacking with my not flying cip dude, ninjitsuing the ninja in. but the clique seems so strong with flash flying beeing 3/1 and having a cip abilitiy which destroys the enemy hand, or cycles me a card deeper into my deck. all in one card what else can i cut in blue ???
    -> mystical teachings often end up finding creatures with flash in the old version of my deck. you play it you flashback it, and you found a mindcensor and snake. which already helped me a lot. i guess finding a clique would be nice too :-p in an envenrionment where nobody plays power or contract it's still stong yeah.
    -> what do you think of the quiet speculation engine as it is now ? (1x Ancient Grudge, 1x Roar of the Wurm, 1x Ray of Revelation, 1x Memory's Journey, 1x Deep Analysis, 4x Mystical Teachings).



    Sure, cut the Clique if you want or not enough room whatevs.

    I'm trying to get you to see the savageness of some of these plays...

    FTK into Jellyfish into FTK into Ninja into FTK. Bin their team, smash.

    SexMonkey into JellyFish into SexMonkey into Ninja into SexMonkey. There went all their mana.

    The Snake can be even more savage because of Cavern Harpy (which you aren't running and probably shouldn't, it's a little too dedicated), but there's lock potential there anyway.

    Shadowmage (and/or Phid) is such a beating. Always has been. It's Phyrexian Arena, but they pay the life.

    Some other Possibles:

    Waterfront Bouncer (w or w/out Squee) - discard my DA, pick up a Snake, Counter. Go you say? Attack, Ninja you. Pwned.

    Wall of Blossoms/Omens - Block a Watchwolf All Day, Manowar, Replay, Draw Again.

    Just think about your synergies. This particular win condition (CITP Men) is powerful because it can get you to a winning position, and then win (as opposed to Morphling or Tog). That what makes it different.

    EDIT: Not to even mention Trinks and Tiago - the savageness should be pretty obvious...
    •  
      CommentAuthorDipstik
    • CommentTimeJan 4th 2012
     
    OR, and this is just a suggestion... if you want to play a deck with a theme of coming into play abilities, you can play the new venser planeswalker.
    •  
      CommentAuthorIllusions-Go
    • CommentTimeJan 5th 2012 edited
     
    -> what do you think of the quiet speculation engine as it is now ? (1x Ancient Grudge, 1x Roar of the Wurm, 1x Ray of Revelation, 1x Memory's Journey, 1x Deep Analysis, 4x Mystical Teachings).


    I'd play at least 1 more DA.

    Your best games will be when you play a land every turn for the first 6 turns and have a chance to cast Fact or Fiction with backup after making a team.
    •  
      CommentAuthorSoapbox
    • CommentTimeJan 5th 2012 edited
     
    Awefull, just came back from my gaming evening! I did 9:5 -> winning 4 Beers :-) YEAH!

    Cards which won me the Games or performed really well:

    Future Sight
    Entomb + Life from the Loam + Fetchies (early)
    Isochron Szeptre + Lightning Helix (2 times)
    Ninja of the Deep Hours (card advantage wise, he actually didnt retrigger anything (but one tiago) because i returned trygon predators and aven mindscensors and mishras factorys mainly, still good)
    Duress early (killed his mana fixing)
    Counterspells, in a row to keep board advantge.
    Man-o-War, Remand, Cryptic Command, Fire / Ice -> stalling
    Shadowmage Infiltrator (Card Advantage)

    Cards i lost to:

    Emrakul brought with Tooth and Nail hasteing -> Emrakul brought with Pattern of Rebirth -> random Emrakul brought with Oath of Druids effects -> Armageddon -> Minds Eye (drawing to many Cards then loosing to Emrakul).

    Missplay of the Day:

    loosing to an not hasting Emrakul brought with pattern of Rebirth, while having Entomb + Life from the Loam in the Graveyard and Tiago in Hand. I should have done Endstep wise Tiago from Hand -> Entomb from Graveyard finding Karakas -> Dredge Life from the Loam in Drawstep -> Life from the Loam -> playing Karakas -> bounce Emrakul.

    General thougts:

    i have missed my Path to Exile. Or in gerneal Creature Spot removal. I'd face Pattern of Rebirth, Solemn Simulacrum, Indestructible Guys, which all get handeled by Path to Exile. I am really thinking of reincluding them, or maybe something similar like Bants Charm if it fits better. Instant, doesnt go to the graveyard creature removal.

    Returning Trygon Predator with Ninja of the Deep Hours quite sucks the most. I cant cut Aven Mindcensor (which is also one of the dudes which gets through because of evasion), because he is way better then Trygon Predator i think. I guess i will cut the Trygon Predator for Vendilion Clique. This should bring me forward. I dont own the Clique and i havent played with it yet. But it seems its a perfect fit. Playing Clique, Duress, and maybe adding Thoughtseize, should be a quite consistent way of Hand disruption.

    Need more Duals -> 4x Tropical Island (i hate searching for it throught 300 Cards) 4x Underground Sea (i hate searching for it throught 300 Cards) and a Bayou (cause i can only find overgrown tomb (TRRRRRRRRRIPPLE-PAIN)).

    I have 4x Wall of Blossoms and 4x Wall of Omen lying arround here. Maybe nice. Maybe better thank playing impulse if you try to play the CiP theme.

    I am sceptic about the Orangutan ... no one play power no one plays cheep moxes.
    •  
      CommentAuthorfrogger42
    • CommentTimeJan 5th 2012
     
    This list is definitely looking a lot tighter. I think Sex Monkeys can get the cut, as long as you keep in Trygon (which I feel a such a beast - pun not intended). Keep in mind, you can move the Firespout into your Green slot, cut Monkeys, and run more Burn, possibly Sudden Shock/ Electrolyze. Artifact removal should be fairly relevant, because if your opponent isn't running Skullclamp, they're probably not running an effective deck.
    If you put in Stoneforge, it might be worth x1 Manriki-Gusari, as well.

    I think the last thing I saw here was the Counterbalance. It seems good against only decks with low (1-3 CMC) curves, and usually they'll have half their threats on the board before you can assemble CB+T. I think I'd cut it, b/c the format runs such a wide variety of different CMC threats, and you'll never know what to stack on top. You could also include a Sphinx of the Steel Wind for Tinker-> yes it dies to StoP, but it also singlehandedly answers Cheaty Red/Green decks, which budget people should definitely run. Worth the x1 slot IMO.

    I used to run Wall of Blossoms x8, but I'd found it 1. Doesn't Ninjutsu and 2. Doesn't suit up well (Jitte, Sword of F/I). It's a great card against aggro, but it doesn't further your game plan so much as muck up your opponent's. I think this kind of deck would rather have minor CA/CIP dudes that can swing, even if just for 1.
    Like Court Hussar!! I'd def play him over any wall. Maybe cut Counterbalance for him.

    But yeah, it's looking like a pretty tight ship here. I'd still try to find a way to run Sakura-Tribe, he's really a fantastic card in his own right (esp with Genesis). I'll take 1/4 of your beers in payment for my advice.
    •  
      CommentAuthorfrogger42
    • CommentTimeJan 5th 2012 edited
     
    And Dipstick: I don't think the Venser PW'er is all that hot (5 mana to Man-o-War...) buuuut the old Venser (2/2 legend guy) should probably replace Man o War here. That card is a serious flashing beatstick, and it mucks up Hypergenesis. Double-sweet, in my book.

    EDIT: + Karakas = Triple Sweet

    ANOTHER EDIT: + bounces hasty Emrakuls. Which seem to be a problem.
    •  
      CommentAuthorIllusions-Go
    • CommentTimeJan 6th 2012 edited
     
    Returning Trygon Predator with Ninja of the Deep Hours quite sucks the most. I cant cut Aven Mindcensor (which is also one of the dudes which gets through because of evasion), because he is way better then Trygon Predator i think. I guess i will cut the Trygon Predator for Vendilion Clique. This should bring me forward. I dont own the Clique and i havent played with it yet. But it seems its a perfect fit. Playing Clique, Duress, and maybe adding Thoughtseize, should be a quite consistent way of Hand disruption.


    Glad that you ID'ed the nombo there. I agree with cutting Trygon in this particular deck.

    For the 4 slots, a combination of Vendilion Clique, Venser Legend, and a singleton Okiba-Gang Shinobi for the top of the curve. Heh. ;)

    Isochron Szeptre + Lightning Helix (2 times)


    After beating the guys with artifacts this week, maybe they'll take a hint and start playing more of them...setting up the Monkey for next week.

    I used to run Wall of Blossoms x8, but I'd found it 1. Doesn't Ninjutsu and 2. Doesn't suit up well (Jitte, Sword of F/I). It's a great card against aggro, but it doesn't further your game plan so much as muck up your opponent's. I think this kind of deck would rather have minor CA/CIP dudes that can swing, even if just for 1.


    Yeah. The Walls are good but probably not for this deck. They are for either the super dedicated late game control deck or the Rec/Sur Deck. The deck with 8x Wall may be able to run Diabolic Intent well...not sure.

    Court Hussar!! I'd def play him over any wall. Maybe cut Counterbalance for him.


    Hussar seems good in this deck. Counterbalance/Top though...cheese.
  3.  
    i have missed my Path to Exile. Or in gerneal Creature Spot removal. I'd face Pattern of Rebirth, Solemn Simulacrum, Indestructible Guys, which all get handeled by Path to Exile. I am really thinking of reincluding them, or maybe something similar like Bants Charm if it fits better. Instant, doesnt go to the graveyard creature removal.


    Stifle the Pattern, Bolt the Jens and crash through with the Phid. Snake their Wrath, Win.

    The other card I'm kinda liking right now for 5C is Prohibit. Seems like another cheap Time Walk for this deck.
  4.  
    Here's another suggestion: Nightscape Familiar...now hear me out -

    Turn 2 Nightscape on the Play
    Turn 3 Land, Finkel. Counter? Prohibit/Lapse/Leak back. GG.

    Survives a Deed, Can Block all Day, Can attack to be Ninja'd. Make's all the good blue even more good.
    •  
      CommentAuthorSoapbox
    • CommentTimeJan 9th 2012 edited
     
    @illusions

    -> i know the power of nightscape familiar, he is quite strong, i see. just i am quite sceptic because he neither has flying nor a cip ability.
    -> prohibit seems not really good, i quess a memory lapse would fit better, in terms of timewalking. and a lapse in a szepter is quite strong too.

    @frogger

    -> Venser Shaper Savant seems really good, it seem to be a upgrade to man-o-war, i just ordered this guy.
    -> Yeah, Curt Hussar looks interesting. I dont know how to include him atm.

    @both

    -> just reached my budged for this months ebay buys. so no more actual changes this month.
    -> i will make some suggestions for my next month's buys with and updated deck list including the buys for dicussion.
    -> i will clean up this tread because its quite not readable anymore i guess.

    -> we may can develop an actuall cheety red/green decklist. so i may build a second 5C-Deck to make other People playing. Seems like this is buildable on a budget. what do you think?

    so long ... thanks for all the (jelly)fish. :-)

    edit: i updated my first post to reflect the actual decklist, sadly i didnt have enough room to let everything but the first deck list in the post. There is a maximum number of caracters which can be used per post.
    •  
      CommentAuthorSoapbox
    • CommentTimeJan 9th 2012 edited
     
    so i just walked through the gatherer; filtering cip creatures with flying. i found some interessting things. I would like to know your opininion about them. Keep the Decklist on the first post in mind:

    Mulldrifter (i see potential to abuse with ninjitsu, and i see potential in just digging 2 deep for 3cmc)
    Messenger Falcons (nice casting cost, could be played in blue green and white to fullfill color req. prply worse than mulldrifter)
    Puppeteer Clique (looks strong with persist and bouncing. quite high cmc and double black -> may shift from double white to double black then. its just playing damnation over wrath of god, and adjusting the manabase. while owning 4 tundra i am in favor of white.)
    Stonecloaker (3/2 flash flying, which lets me retrigger some stuff or may be a graveyard answer, looks quite good, maybe a dead card in hand if i dont controll creatures, to dedicated maybe.)

    not from the gatherer:

    what do you think about playing solemn simulacrum, maybe instead of darksteel ingots. it is cip and cardadvantge. and i dont care to WoG or Deed him away. He's quite slow though.
    •  
      CommentAuthorSoapbox
    • CommentTimeJan 10th 2012 edited
     
    I did some adjustment, and would really like know if you think i made my deck worse or i did iprovements.
    Changes apply to the decklist in the first post rather than the last decklist posted in this post.

    -4 Darksteel Ingot
    -4 Impulse
    -4 Uktabi Orangutan
    -4 Krosan Verge
    -1 Krosan Grip
    -1 Personal Tutor

    +4 Solemn Simulacrum
    +4 Ponder
    +4 Vendilion Clique
    +4 Bant Charm
    +1 Crop Rotation
    +1 Stroke of Genius

    Thougts:
    I did increase creaturecount from 52 to 56; i guess that helps.
    I choosed to play Trygon Predator over Uktabi Orangutan just because of my meta, I need to be able to handle plenty of Enchantments.
    Last gaming evening i missed Crop Rotation, so i added it; still leaving Sylvan Scrying out.
    Cutting Uktabi Orangutan; but didnt decrease ways of handling Artifacts by adding Bant Charm.
    Playing 4 Lands less, but keeping ways of Library manipulation up with Ponder. This could get cut again for additional 4 Lands
    I did cut Peronsal Tutor, because it seems to be slow and doesnt really help me, so i added Stroke of Genius; which could easly be an additonal Deep Analysis.


    Decklist now sorts like this:
    ----------------------------------------
    [25] Red
    [4] Creatures

    R Gamble
    1 Ancient Grudge
    3 Lightning Helix
    4 Lightning Bolt
    4 Fire / Ice
    4 Magma Jet
    4 Firespout

    4 Flametongue Kavu
    ----------------------------------------
    [25] Green
    [10] Creatures

    R Crop Rotation
    R Regrowth
    1 Life from the Loam
    1 Roar of the Wurm
    3 Krosan Grip
    4 Pernicious Deed
    4 Bants Charm

    R Eternal Witness
    1 Genesis
    4 Mystic Snake
    4 Trygon Predator
    ----------------------------------------
    25 White
    [9] Creatures

    R Enlightend Tutor
    R Balance
    1 Ray of Revelation
    1 Akromas Vengeance
    4 Wrath of God
    4 Swords to Plowshares
    4 Eladamris Call

    R Academy Rector
    4 Aven Mindcensor
    4 Kitchen Finks
    ----------------------------------------
    [25] Black
    [4] Creatures

    R Demonic Tutor
    R Vampiric Tutor
    R Demonic Consultation
    R Yawgmoths Will
    1 Entomb
    4 Duress
    4 Shadow of Doubt
    4 Tainted Pact
    4 Vindicate

    4 Shadowmage Infiltrator
    ----------------------------------------
    [24] Artifacts
    [9] Creatures

    R Sol Ring
    R Isochron Szeptre
    R Crucible of the World
    4 Sensei's Divining Top
    4 Nihil Spellbomb
    4 Engineered Explosives

    1 Inkwell Leviathan
    4 Solemn Simulacrum
    4 Etched Oracle
    ----------------------------------------
    [72] Blue
    [20] Creatures

    R Mystical Tutor
    R Intuition
    R Gifts Ungiven
    R Tinker
    R Stroke of Genius
    1 Future Sight
    1 Memory's Journey
    1 Deep Analysis
    4 Quiet Speculation
    4 Brainstorm
    4 Ponder
    4 Force of Will
    4 Counterspell
    4 Evasive Action
    4 Remand
    4 Cryptic Command
    4 Stifle
    4 Counterbalance
    4 Fact or Fiction
    4 Mystical Teachings

    4 Venser Shaper Savant
    4 Snapscaster Mage
    4 Ninja of the Deep Hours
    4 Trinket Mage
    4 Vendilion Clique
    ----------------------------------------
    [56] Creatures
    [200] Total
    ----------------------------------------
    [100] Lands

    4 Tundra
    1 Tropical Island
    1 Volcanic Island
    1 Underground Sea
    2 Savanah
    2 Taiga
    1 Plateu
    1 Bayou
    1 Scrubland

    4 Windswept Heath
    4 Polluted Delta
    4 Flooded Strand
    4 Wooded Foothills
    4 Misty Rainforest
    4 Scalding Tarn
    4 Verdant Catacombs

    1 Watery Grave
    1 Overgrown Tomb
    1 Steam Vents

    4 Teramorphic Expanse
    4 Evolving Wilds

    4 Seacoast Citadell
    4 Arcane Sanctum
    4 Crumbling Necropolis

    4 Exotic Orchard

    4 Mishras Factory
    1 Maze of Ith
    1 Stripmine
    1 Wasteland
    1 Volraths Stronghold
    1 Bojuka Bog
    1 Karakas

    2 Mountain
    2 Swamp
    2 Plains
    5 Forest
    5 Island

    4 Tolaria West
    1 City of Brass
    ----------------------------------------
    [56] Creatures
    [300] Total
    ----------------------------------------
    •  
      CommentAuthorSoapbox
    • CommentTimeJan 10th 2012 edited
     
    Additional thougts:

    Shadowmage Infiltrator; whilst definitly beeing strong doesnt seem to fit my CiP Topic very well. Alternativly Psychatog neither; adding next month wishlist candiate Thoughtseize or Mindtwist could help. What do you think?

    Cutting Bant Charm for beeing slow, to add Path to Exile would be an option, because i think Krosan Grip is quite worth the slots. (I really would like to play 3-4 more instant creature spot removal; going hardcore and adding 4x Damnation would still be an option)

    Kitchen Finks seems to fit the topic quite well, it CiP and survives sweeping well; but it doesnt affect the board in a mayor way. Still better than Loxodon Hierarch i guess; what do you think?

    In a deck like this; without Power; with only 4x Solemn ramping; how many lands to play ? Is decreasing landcount whilst adding 1CMC library manipulation (Brainstorm; Ponder; Preordain) an option?

    So both of you think Court Hussar is quite worth the slot; you know it's blue; which artifact to cut for him? I mean he is really cheap in terms of €$€; easly fitting my "this months budget". What about the Mulldrifter ???

    Next months budged could be 4x Stoneforge Mystic; 1x Umazewas Jitte; 1x Batterskull; 1x Skullclamp -4x Kitchen Finks. Seems Good!
    It will by any means be +1 Tropical Island; and could aswell be a Chaos Orb. Think the Orb is fun and versatile in both ways.

    Greetings ... Soapbox!
    •  
      CommentAuthorIllusions-Go
    • CommentTimeJan 10th 2012 edited
     
    Cutting Personal Tutor? Who doesn't want WoG, DT, Duress, Loam, Balance, Will, Spec, Vengence, DA in their hand?
    •  
      CommentAuthorSoapbox
    • CommentTimeJan 11th 2012
     
    hm true!
    •  
      CommentAuthorfrogger42
    • CommentTimeJan 11th 2012 edited
     
    Heeeey. Gone now!
  5.  
    Cutting Eladamri's Call from the deck in it's current form would be retarded. Sorry to be blunt, but there's no better way of putting it.
    •  
      CommentAuthorSoapbox
    • CommentTimeJan 13th 2012 edited
     
    Some more effort has been put into the decklist.

    I abandoned my latest changes and started over from the Decklist at the first Post.

    I have 4x Verdalken Shackles lying arround here, guess i am going to playtest them; whilst im not so sure if it already works well with the existing manabase. Had a couple of games where i had the same problems regarding Evasive Action, and having those CiP Tapped Tri-Lands in play. Evasive Action going for 0 mana more, is not really impressive.

    Had a Game where i had 2 Lands in my opening Hand, and then didnt drew any Lands for the next 10 Turns or so, obviusly a loose. Im gonna add Sakura-Tribe Elder, to increase chances of ramping some mana up.

    To include Tribe Elders, Shackels, Court Hussar and Vendilion Clique i had to revisit the Blue Cards, need cut some and prply find alternatives in other Colors for those Cards. Best Example here is -4 Evasive Action -4 Stifle +4 Voidslime. Cant archive it other ways.

    Im not really happy somehow in loosing Stifle, and Ponder ... do you see anyway of including them ?

    -4 Ponder
    -4 Stifle
    -4 Evasive Action
    -4 Shadowmage Infiltrator
    -4 Uktabi Orangutan
    -1 Flametongue Kavu

    +4 Vendilion Clique
    +4 Voidslime
    +4 Court Hussar
    +4 Verdalken Shackles
    +4 Sakura-Tribe Elder
    +1 Lighning Helix

    Decklist:
    ----------------------------------------
    [25] Red
    [3] Creatures

    R Gamble
    1 Ancient Grudge
    4 Lightning Bolt
    4 Fire / Ice
    4 Magma Jet
    4 Lightning Helix
    4 Firespout

    3 Flametongue Kavu
    ----------------------------------------
    [25] Green
    [14] Creatures

    R Regrowth
    R Crop Rotation
    1 Roar of the Wurm
    1 Life from the Loam
    3 Krosan Grip
    4 Voidslime

    R Eternal Witness
    1 Genesis
    4 Mystic Snake
    4 Trygon Predator
    4 Sakura-Tribe Elder
    ----------------------------------------
    [25] White
    [9] Creatures

    R Enlightend Tutor
    R Balance
    1 Ray of Revelation
    1 Akromas Vengeance
    4 Wrath of God
    4 Swords to Plowshares
    4 Eladamris Call

    R Academy Rector
    4 Aven Mindcensor
    4 Kitchen Finks
    ----------------------------------------
    [25] Black
    [0] Creatures

    R Demonic Tutor
    R Vampiric Tutor
    R Demonic Consultation
    R Yawgmoths Will
    R Entomb
    4 Duress
    4 Shadow of Doubt
    4 Tainted Pact
    4 Vindicate
    4 Pernicious Deed
    ----------------------------------------
    [28] Artifacts
    [5] Creatures

    1 Sol Ring
    1 Isochron Szeptre
    1 Crucible of the World
    4 Darksteel Ingot
    4 Sensei's Divining Top
    4 Nihil Spellbomb
    4 Engineered Explosives
    4 Verdalken Shackles

    1 Inkwell Leviathan
    4 Etched Oracle
    ----------------------------------------
    [68] Blue
    [24] Creatures

    R Mystical Tutor
    R Personal Tutor
    R Intuition
    R Gifts Ungiven
    R Tinker
    1 Future Sight
    1 Memory's Journey
    1 Deep Analysis
    4 Quiet Speculation
    4 Force of Will
    4 Counterspell
    4 Remand
    4 Cryptic Command
    4 Counterbalance
    4 Fact or Fiction
    4 Mystical Teachings
    4 Brainstorm

    4 Venser Shaper Savant
    4 Snapscaster Mage
    4 Ninja of the Deep Hours
    4 Trinket Mage
    4 Vendilion Clique
    4 Court Husar
    ----------------------------------------
    [55] Creatures
    [196] Total
    ----------------------------------------
    [104] Lands

    4 Tundra
    1 Tropical Island
    1 Volcanic Island
    1 Underground Sea
    2 Savanah
    2 Taiga
    1 Plateu
    1 Bayou
    1 Scrubland

    4 Windswept Heath
    4 Polluted Delta
    4 Flooded Strand
    4 Wooded Foothills
    4 Misty Rainforest
    4 Scalding Tarn
    4 Verdant Catacombs

    1 Watery Grave
    1 Overgrown Tomb
    1 Steam Vents

    4 Teramorphic Expanse
    4 Evolving Wilds

    4 Seacoast Citadell
    4 Arcane Sanctum
    4 Crumbling Necropolis

    4 Exotic Orchard

    4 Mishras Factory
    1 Maze of Ith
    1 Stripmine
    1 Wasteland
    1 Volraths Stronghold
    1 Bojuka Bog
    1 Karakas

    2 Mountain
    2 Swamp
    2 Plains
    5 Forest
    5 Island

    4 Tolaria West
    4 Krosan Verge
    1 City of Brass
    ----------------------------------------
    [55] Creatures
    [300] Total
    ----------------------------------------

    Gonna playtest this list, this weekend.
    Greets Soapbox
    •  
      CommentAuthorfrogger42
    • CommentTimeJan 13th 2012
     
    Evasive is super-hot tech, but only if you've got the duals. Just hold onto them till you get your playset.
    Same with Shackles. You need all your U duals before you should put that card in, otherwise you'll get frustrated. I'd count it towards the Creature count when you do, though.
    (Eld Call => Stoneforge Mystic. IMO, anyway. +2 mana for any of your creatures isn't really a good deal against aggressive decks, only really against slower control builds.)
    I used to run Coiling Oracle in some Green slots, too, and he's nice w/Top. Green Sun Zenith + Dryad Arbor = Llanowar Elf early game, fattie/toolbox late game.
  6.  
    Posted By: frogger42Evasive is super-hot tech, but only if you've got the duals. Just hold onto them till you get your playset.
    Same with Shackles. You need all your U duals before you should put that card in, otherwise you'll get frustrated. I'd count it towards the Creature count when you do, though.


    +1 (Prohibit instead?)

    Posted By: frogger42(Eld Call => Stoneforge Mystic. IMO, anyway. +2 mana for any of your creatures isn't really a good deal against aggressive decks, only really against slower control builds.).


    Call for the Snake, Call for the Ninja, Call for the FTK. I mean, if he had actual DT in the aggro match he'd just Balance you, but FTK is a pretty nice roadblock.

    Posted By: frogger42I used to run Coiling Oracle in some Green slots, too, and he's nice w/Top. Green Sun Zenith + Dryad Arbor = Llanowar Elf early game, fattie/toolbox late game.


    The Zenith, because of it's drawbacks (sorcery and "green creature") make it not nearly as gassy as E. Call. It turns all his flash guys into regular men.

    I'm still anti-Trygon, just because it's a very conservative choice that has to satisfy a bunch of conditions before it's an answer. When it's slapping every turn and getting something, that's usually a blowout win, but when you need to kill the oath, crumbling sanctuary, THRAN DYNAMO and others, it's a lightning rod for well...lightning bolts, like they'll do anything to kill it. A Monkey would have just ended it right there and then. No chance at redemption.

    Soapbox, next time you draw Trygon think "How good would a Monkey be here?" Next time you E Call and need to kill an Art, think that too. Enchantments? A singleton Monk Realist does the job. Just sayin'.
    •  
      CommentAuthorSoapbox
    • CommentTimeJan 13th 2012 edited
     
    Well just came back from my gaming evening, it was ridiculus; i batteled another friend of mine, he plays some sort of midrange deck with plenty of heavy 3 drops. I went 9-0; i guess he had 0 fun.

    -> I didnt draw a single Verdalken Shackles (which dies to deed to btw), but i draw plenty of Evasive Action, and it was most of the time really BAD! As you mentioned above, without 4x U Duals going, it doesnt makes sense. Same counts for the Shackles. This actually, forces me to decice which counterspell to play instead. (btw its a long road to go 4 me to obtain 3x Tropical 3x Underground Sea 3x Volcanic Islands in terms of $$)

    -> Im unsure about Prohibit; you know i want to be able to counter 3cmc spells, while enemy is on the play; there is a lot of critical ramping going on in my meta on turn 3, so Prohibit doesnt serve me well, so i would go Manaleak instead, but i need to go offcolor. So i think Counterquall is actually not that bad of a choice. It does all i need; Counter your Darksteel Ingot; Kodamas Reach, and it is able to hold back a strong lategame sorcery, like Balance, Tooth and Nail, Planeswalkers and stuff like this.

    -> I am not going to cut Counterblance to free more Blue slots; i had a Counterblance turn 2 which randomly countered the the first spell, followed up by a divining top. This Counterbalance ended up in countering EVERY spell he played after Counterbalance hits the table. (Dont know why they put Balance in the name; its completly Unbalanced.) No doubt.

    -> Omg, Vendilion Clique was awesome; i would go as far and say, best creature in the deck, fits perfectly!

    -> I agree; Orangutan > Trygon Predator here, i will change this accordingly. What about Harmonic Sliver maybe?

    -> Often; Eladamris Call says: In response -> search Snake -> Counter; In response -> search Mindscensor -> Fizzle your Tutoring; It could even say: Endstep; search -> Etched Oracle -> Card advantage; Or say: Endstep -> Answer your Enchantment / Artifact; Or say: Endstep -> search Tribe Elder -> solve mana issues. Its not like your not drawing Creatures with a Creaturecount >50. It's more like holding it back till you need to find an answer, in form of a creature with it, id say.

    -> I love Venser the Shaper Servant, he is quite a good replacement for Man-o-War. FLASH, ahaha savior of the universe ...
    •  
      CommentAuthorSoapbox
    • CommentTimeJan 13th 2012 edited
     
    Changes apply to the latest decklist:

    -1 Akromas Vengeance
    -4 Trygon Predator
    -4 Verdalken Shackles
    -4 Voidslime

    +1 Monk Realist
    +4 Uktabi Orangutan
    +4 Stifle
    +4 Countersquall

    So the new decklist sorts like this:
    ---------------------------------------
    [25] Red
    [3] Creatures

    R Gamble
    1 Ancient Grudge
    4 Lightning Bolt
    4 Fire / Ice
    4 Magma Jet
    4 Lightning Helix
    4 Firespout

    3 Flametongue Kavu
    ----------------------------------------
    [25] Green
    [14] Creatures

    R Crop Rotation
    R Regrowth
    1 Roar of the Wurm
    1 Life from the Loam
    3 Krosan Grip
    4 Pernicious Deed

    R Eternal Witness
    1 Genesis
    4 Mystic Snake
    4 Uktabi Orangutan
    4 Sakura-Tribe Elder
    ----------------------------------------
    [25] White
    [10] Creatures

    R Enlightend Tutor
    R Balance
    1 Ray of Revelation
    4 Wrath of God
    4 Swords to Plowshares
    4 Eladamris Call

    R Academy Rector
    1 Monk Realist
    4 Aven Mindcensor
    4 Kitchen Finks
    ----------------------------------------
    [25] Black
    [0] Creatures

    R Demonic Tutor
    R Vampiric Tutor
    R Demonic Consultation
    R Yawgmoths Will
    R Entomb
    4 Duress
    4 Shadow of Doubt
    4 Tainted Pact
    4 Countersquall
    4 Vindicate
    ----------------------------------------
    [24] Artifacts
    [5] Creatures

    R Sol Ring
    R Isochron Szeptre
    R Crucible of the World
    4 Darksteel Ingot
    4 Sensei's Divining Top
    4 Nihil Spellbomb
    4 Engineered Explosives

    1 Inkwell Leviathan
    4 Etched Oracle
    ----------------------------------------
    [72] Blue
    [24] Creatures

    R Mystical Tutor
    R Personal Tutor
    R Intuition
    R Gifts Ungiven
    R Tinker

    1 Memory's Journey
    1 Deep Analysis
    1 Future Sight
    4 Quiet Speculation
    4 Force of Will
    4 Counterspell
    4 Remand
    4 Cryptic Command
    4 Counterbalance
    4 Stifle
    4 Fact or Fiction
    4 Mystical Teachings
    4 Brainstorm

    4 Venser Shaper Savant
    4 Snapscaster Mage
    4 Ninja of the Deep Hours
    4 Trinket Mage
    4 Vendilion Clique
    4 Court Husar
    ----------------------------------------
    [56] Creatures
    [196] Total
    ----------------------------------------
    [104] Lands

    4 Tundra
    1 Tropical Island
    1 Volcanic Island
    1 Underground Sea
    2 Savanah
    2 Taiga
    1 Plateu
    1 Bayou
    1 Scrubland

    4 Windswept Heath
    4 Polluted Delta
    4 Flooded Strand
    4 Wooded Foothills
    4 Misty Rainforest
    4 Scalding Tarn
    4 Verdant Catacombs

    1 Watery Grave
    1 Overgrown Tomb
    1 Steam Vents

    4 Teramorphic Expanse
    4 Evolving Wilds

    4 Seacoast Citadell
    4 Arcane Sanctum
    4 Crumbling Necropolis

    4 Exotic Orchard

    4 Mishras Factory
    1 Maze of Ith
    1 Stripmine
    1 Wasteland
    1 Volraths Stronghold
    1 Bojuka Bog
    1 Karakas

    2 Mountain
    2 Swamp
    2 Plains
    5 Forest
    5 Island

    4 Tolaria West
    4 Krosan Verge
    1 City of Brass
    ----------------------------------------
    [56] Creatures
    [300] Total
    ----------------------------------------

    Just wanted to mention; now there is nearly no creature without a CIP abillity, or putting you ahead while sweeping the board, but Inky and Aven Mindcensors. And plenty of them have flash. Beeing a target for Mystical Teaching aswell.

    Best Slots for improvement is Lands (Duals, Wastelands) +1 Chaos Orb -1 Engineered Explosives i guess.

    Puh, this may be a candiate for updating the first post i feel; Greetings Soapbox.
  7.  
    ^^^

    This one's looking pretty spicy. ::thumbs up::
    •  
      CommentAuthorfrogger42
    • CommentTimeJan 17th 2012
     
    I think I'd prefer Harmonic Sliver x4 over sex monkeys. I'm not really sold on Kitchen Finks, too, but depends on your meta; I still go in favor of Stoneforge Mystic, even if you have to blow away an equip due to Deed. Though Batterskull should survive most sensible Deeding, I'd think.

    I've never played Krosan Grip in my 5-C, as I find Anc Grudge/Ray of Rev + Quiet Spec/ Entomb to be enough for me. Yeah, entomb's kinda expensive, esp if you need duals, but it toolboxes really efficiently; basically, it's a Disenchant for BG, plus more if you need it. I'm not sure what you need to Grip out there, but I know if I ran it, there'd be many times it'd be dead in my hand. Just curious what you use it for that Sex Monkeys/ Harmonic Sliver doesn't get.
    •  
      CommentAuthorfrogger42
    • CommentTimeJan 24th 2012
     
    Heya Soapbox, there's a new 3U flier spoiled in the new set: 2/2, flying (evasion 4 ninjaaa) and put one of your top 2 cards in your hand, other in the grave. ie it Cantrips + evasion.
    I'm not sure how hard the 4-mana hits your curve, but it's unc and I'd probably run it over Oracle, actually - pitches to FoW and comes down a turn earlier. Just a thought.

    Plus, how good's the new Tolarian Winds + Flashback in... STORM!! I'm finding my control deck with 50 counters can't really stop it, mrg. I'm actually going to suggest restricting Mem Jar and possibly Channel; 4 x is purdy nutz.
    •  
      CommentAuthorDipstik
    • CommentTimeJan 24th 2012
     
    Suggestion noted. No action will be taken. Thank you for your input. Have a good day.
    •  
      CommentAuthorJD.5
    • CommentTimeJan 24th 2012
     
    The Flashback Tolarian Winds will probably see as much play as Tolarian Winds. Seriously. I do like the flashbackable Call to Mind though. That's neat. I MIGHT try it eventually.

    Channel is fine where it is. It's never hurt anyone being Unrestricted and it's absolutely useless being Restricted. I have yet to come into contact with a player that drops a second turn Channel for 15 and drops an Emrakul, which, in my mind is like the most dumb thing that could be done with that card.

    That 3U flyer thing is terrible. When you are paying four for a creature, you better be either getting a 6/6 beast that has flying and problack, a 4/4 body that gains you 4 life and has the 'potential' to save your team, a 1/2 that acts essentially like a Moat, or some other good creature. I get that you're aiming at the 187 bit but sometimes it's not worth playing a shitty creature just because it fits your theme. I'll be honest, I'd have been much happier if you would have said Thieving Magpie over this new pile. Bleh.

    Also, since you're all about flashback, why nothing like Psychatog? I've always found that guy incredibly brutal.

    Firestorm seems good especially in a world of 4 Contracts.

    And Krosan Grip should not be more than a 1 of. Yeah, it's neat and all but you can search it up with Mystical Teachings. Utilize Mystical to it's maximum and play 1 of badass instants.

    I know I might get punched for saying this but I truly love Arcane Denial over Counterspell. Yeah, fine, they rip two but if you're countering the right stuff it really doesn't matter. I will gladly allow my opponent to draw two cards in exchange for me to rip one and hard counter some game breaking spell. If played correctly it can be fantastic. Hell, Evasive Action is fantastic too since you play Duals.

    Why on God's greenest Earth are you playing Darksteel Ingot? You are playing Duals and Fetches. Ingot survives Deed... and that's it. Who cares? At least run Fellwar Stone instead. It comes down a turn earlier and practically produces the exact same mana. OR, it you're really concerned about Artifact Board Wipe (or whatever), play Mind Stone. At least you rip off it when it's junk late game.

    How can anyone not like Kitchen Finks!? That thing is dumb good. That boggles my mind.

    Alright, I'm done.
    •  
      CommentAuthorfrogger42
    • CommentTimeJan 24th 2012
     
    All the creatures you mentioned have 1 thing in common: no cantrip. It's nice running "trash" like Court Hussar and Sea Gate Oracle (plus the new flier) b/c they all net you the next card, ie, someone WoGs all your base and you shrug, drop the next two dudes. Dropping a threat + mini-Impulse puts the opponent in the position of countering a 1/3 Vigilant and feeling like an arse, or realistically saving it for your money spells. Throwing a bolt at a guy that already netted me a card just makes me grin like a jerk.
    And go ahead, Arc Denial my dude. I'll drop the next two.

    I don't actually run finishers other than Knight of the Relq (Goyf seems pretty vanilla in control, maybe Finks could be a 2-for-1) and that's only because of serious utility/ card advantage. But, yeah, 4 for a dude is a lot; 3 would be ideal, and prolly Coiling Oracle gets signed onto the team first. I do think the flier's a bit more useful than Etched Oracle, as I find Oracle's a beast vs control, but 1. You really want to keep that 1 mana open and 2. He realistically comes down a turn later than crummy said 4-drop. I've sworn by Oracle for the past few years, but since I dropped it for Vendilion Cliques, I don't see myself going back. He's awesome, but you pay dearly in tempo. He'll make the cut again when 5-C goes to 350 cards (sweetness!)

    Soapbox: I think Dust Bowl is preferable over Wasteland for a control deck. It can eliminate 2+ long-term threats (like a Thawing Glaciers and opposing tapped Dust Bowl) whereas Wasteland can only hit one, obv. Luckily, it's much cheaper, too.
    And I guess no one mentioned Coiling Oracle, who's the other great snake dude. Works really well with Brainstorm/Top/Sylvan Lib, but he's definitely sufficient on his own. I find Sakura-Tribe is generally a bit more useful, but if you can make some space, it might be worth including both. Mind Stone's pretty hot, too. Anyone got some foil ones?
    •  
      CommentAuthorDipstik
    • CommentTimeJan 25th 2012
     
    You're making the same mistake I did, JD... you're trying to make a competitive deck out of a non-competitive deck for someone who doesn't play competitively. Just let him go.
    •  
      CommentAuthorIllusions-Go
    • CommentTimeJan 25th 2012 edited
     
    I know I might get punched for saying this but I truly love Arcane Denial over Counterspell. Yeah, fine, they rip two but if you're countering the right stuff it really doesn't matter. I will gladly allow my opponent to draw two cards in exchange for me to rip one and hard counter some game breaking spell. If played correctly it can be fantastic. Hell, Evasive Action is fantastic too since you play Duals.


    "Correctly playing" Arcane Denial is dropping a Lodestone Bauble or Zorb, countering it with your own AD and JANKcestralling yourself OR countering the Disk and then laying Stasis or Worb with a Mine out. - this was 1996.

    He's already running Kitchen Finks, scroll down and comment on the latest version of the deck. RTF Thread guy.

    You're making the same mistake I did, JD... you're trying to make a competitive deck out of a non-competitive deck for someone who doesn't play competitively. Just let him go.


    Chances are this Euro plays more 5C, more often, and against better players, than you do.

    Rough part of this deck thread is that their group doesn't allow ante cards in their game, which changes things signficantly.
    •  
      CommentAuthorDipstik
    • CommentTimeJan 25th 2012
     
    I don't doubt that you probably play more 5-color than me right now because I moved 6 hours away from the nearest guy with a deck. It's taking me some time to teach new people how to play it. That doesn't change the fact that I happen to have a wealth of knowledge accumulated over a decade of playing competitive 5. It's obvious you don't want my advice, so I stopped offering it.

    Your deck is still shit. Sorry. You can pretend key-vault control and aggro don't exist, and maybe they don't in your metagame (didn't even know people PLAYED 5C in germany, honestly), but either one will consistently trounce you.
    •  
      CommentAuthorIllusions-Go
    • CommentTimeJan 25th 2012 edited
     
    -offtopic-

    @Dipstik

    Fuck I had a super long SVG response typed out and lost it to the Web Demons. To summarize far less savagely:

    1. There was never a deck posted in the Brown thread.
    2. If you think a Brown deck isn't viable in 5C then don't know as much as you think. Seriously.
    3. Brew decks, bounce ideas, and participate in a fucking forum. "This deck is shit" isn't valuable to anyone.
    4. Drop the web ego. This isn't the kiddie pool. Others here are capable of high-level magic.

    -/offtopic-

    On Krosan Grip.

    Ok, KGrip right. They are trying to hit Top. Big whoop you can get a 1-4-1 by playing a 3 mana Disenchant. Just wait for the shuffle effect and then Grudge it like everyone else. No Big. If there are other common applications of this removal spell (that makes it better than Grudge/Ray/Spec) I'd like to hear 'em.
    •  
      CommentAuthorSoapbox
    • CommentTimeJan 25th 2012 edited
     
    Kill a Deed; Kill a Etched Oracle; Kill a Sterling Groove!

    But yeah; it can prply be a one of in my deck. I agree.
    •  
      CommentAuthorSoapbox
    • CommentTimeJan 25th 2012 edited
     
    So for next Month's trading/buying i'll try to archive the following Manabase.

    I think archieving the Manabase will be the greates Goal, i am still interested in owning Stoneforge Mystics + Gear and Jaces but i think the Manabase is the Priority here. Once you obtained all those Fetchies and Duals, your able to run nearly every deck on it.

    The Goal is to play Evasive Action (or other Domain Spells) reliable and beeing able to play Vedalken Shackles.

    So tell what you think; where to save money, or where to do adjustments. (I prefer buying Cards which are also viable in Legacy)

    No Man Lands atm; Creeping Tar Pit seems strong; does it beat Mishras Factory though; Legacy wise, Mutavault would be an option in Landstill/Meerfolk though, is it playable here ?

    100 Lands

    4 Tundra
    4 Tropical Island; missing 3
    4 Volcanic Island; missing 3
    4 Underground Sea; missing 3
    1 Savanah
    1 Taiga
    1 Plateu
    1 Bayou
    1 Scrubland

    1 Breeding Pool; missing 1
    1 Hallowed Fountain; missing 1
    1 Steam Vents
    1 Watery Grave

    4 Windswept Heath
    4 Polluted Delta
    4 Flooded Strand
    4 Wooded Foothills
    4 Bloodstained Mire missing 4
    4 Misty Rainforest
    4 Scalding Tarn
    4 Verdant Catacombs
    4 Arid Mesa; missing 4
    4 Marsh Flats; missing 4

    4 Exotic Orchard
    4 Thrawing Galciers; missing 4 (not sure here i've got 4 Krosan Verges ready to play)
    4 Tolaria West
    4 Wasteland; missing 3 (Good old Legacy Card; especally for Landstill)

    1 Stripmine
    1 Dust Bowl
    1 Maze of Ith
    1 Volraths Stronghold
    1 Bojuka Bog
    1 Karakas

    2 Mountain
    2 Swamp
    2 Plains
    2 Forest
    5 Island

    LoA will one day be a buy; but not now.

    So long ... Soapbox