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      CommentAuthorfrogger42
    • CommentTimeDec 8th 2011 edited
     
    Yeah, I'm trying it. Some things are totally busted, when you get a redonk hand... some are frustratingly awful. And it takes like 15 min when you have a tutor to figure out what you should go for. No idea if this is to 300 cards, btw. Been tweaking just by sight for a bit (x4 if not noted):

    Lands: 77:
    Tolaria West x4
    40 Fetches
    4x non-W duals (28)
    1x W duals (3)
    R Tolarian Academy
    R LoA

    Art: 6 R Moxen
    Chrome Mox
    Mox Diamond
    R Black Lotus
    R Mana Vault
    R Mana Crypt (wb Spanish, mrg...)
    R Sol Ring
    Grim Monolith
    Lotus Petal
    Memory Jar
    LED

    Black
    R Vamp Tutor
    R Grim Tutor
    R Imperial Seal
    R Yawgmoth's Will
    R Yawgmoth's Bargain
    R Demonic Consultation
    R Demonic Tutor
    Ill-Gotten Gains
    Dark Ritual
    Cabal Ritual
    Tendrils
    Contract
    Infernal Tutor

    Blue:
    R Ancestral Recall
    R Time Spiral
    R Personal Tutor
    R Mystical
    R Timetwister
    R Intuition
    R Merchant Scroll
    R Gifts Ungiven
    R Tinker
    Mind's Desire
    Windfall
    Brainstorm
    Trinket Mage
    Snapcaster Mage
    Mana Drain
    Dizzy Spell
    Ponder
    Gush
    Preordain
    Frantic Search
    Future Sight x1
    Diminishing Returns x1

    Green
    R Fastbond
    R Regrowth
    R Crop Rotation
    R Eternal Witness
    Summoner's Pact
    Autumn's Veil
    Channel
    Land Grant
    Tinder Wall
    Elvish Spirit Guide

    Red
    R Gamble
    R Wheel of Fortune
    Recoup x1
    Seething Song
    Empty the Warrens
    Desperate Ritual
    Grapeshot
    Past in Flames
    Pyretic Ritual
    Rite of Flame
    Simian Spirit Guide

    White:
    R Enlightened Tutor
    Grand Abolisher (formerly Second Sunrise...)
    Abeyance
    Auriok Salvagers
    Tithe
    Orim's Chant
    Silence

    Multi:
    Wild Cantor
    Squandered Resources
    Lim-Dul's Vault
    Manamorphose
    Cad Bloom x1

    Some thoughts: tried Culling the Weak, and it's teh weak sauce. Absolutely stinks. Even Diabolic Intent is a buncha suck, and usually stays stuck in a hand.
    My buddy's been trying it and wants 10 more land. I figure dropping x1 white card (perhaps Rector), plus Transmute Arti, Fabricate, Dream Halls and maybe the gobos. I've never played the current 1.5 RBU storm, so I dunno what a proper land/spell ratio is. Hard to tell with storm, anyway.
    I might Cad Bloom up to 4x, just to playtest and see if you want it in your hand. I dunno, maybe; BG seems easy enough to ramp into. Though you def don't want to burn your mana on a non-storm spell and sputter out.
    Same buddy T1 out a Yawg Bargain, drew a new 7... and lost in a few turns. It was absolutely frustrating watching that happen, and it shouldn't, really. Suggestions most welcome.
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      CommentAuthorIllusions-Go
    • CommentTimeDec 9th 2011 edited
     
    There are a bunch of different ways to do storm. Some examples:

    1) Spell-based Mana Accel and Cheap Blue Draw into Mind's Desire (low land count, lots of red and black rituals)

    2) Flare/Heartbeat with Frantic Search, Turnabout, and Palinchron (more lands, maybe a bit more stable, but slower)

    3) Trinket Mage -> Lotus, Salvagers into a storm spell or a way to bounce Trinket Mage and get a Pyrite Bomb.

    4) Draw7. 4x LED, Balls to the Wall, All In Randomness. With Burning Wish and Death Wish out of the format, LED got much worse. However this deck most likely produces the fastest wins but with 300 cards, the pilot needs some luck. 4x Diminishing Returns + all the good Draw7s and probably Meditate.

    5) A combination of 2 of the above 4, or a combination of the Storm shell with another 2-Card combo. For example, TrixStorm, CadBloom Storm, DRAGON storm...etc.

    ----------

    For your hypothetical deck above, I'd suggest Sunscape Familiar (maybe maybe not on Nightscape or Medallian) be in the first draft. Sunscape is bombtastic in this kind of deck and eats a white slot.
    •  
      CommentAuthorfrogger42
    • CommentTimeDec 10th 2011
     
    Hrm, Meditate... I completely blanked on that one. It's not auto-include at 3 mana for 4 cards, but worth considering.
    But yeah, this is balls-to-the-wall everything you can imagine was ever in a storm deck, kind of a necessity given the 300-card min. Except High Tide (just never worked out - not enough lands in play). White is the worst color, by far, and I'm forced to run Tithe x4... megh.
    Chant
    Silence
    Rector x1
    Abeyance (also sub-par, 2 mana is too much)
    Salvagers
    Second Sunrise
    Tithe
    E Tutor x1

    I think Sunscape is an interesting call there, and maybe I'll consider trying it out instead.
    I put in Dream Halls x1, but no Cad Bloom. Bad call on my part, w/all the Draw 7s.
    And yeah, the hope with Salvg is to T Mage into Lotus, or use an LED+ Recoup x1, Past in Flames x4. Infinite mana/storm with no hand doesn't mean you win, if you don't have a tutor or draw to PiF. No spellbombs in here, though. I might include 1, possibly to tutor, but I doubt it'd be easy to grab without using a real/potentially Tendrils tutor. So might be "win more" in that instance.

    Flare/Heartbeat... prolly not. That's too much an engine for my build, one that requires all the untap effects. I'll get a list up (I promise!) but it runs so few lands that Turnabout is bad, Early Harvest is only for basics, and Reset cuts out all the sorceries and tutors. I thought those decks were neat, but I always hated the idea of ramping up the opponent into their big stuff, too. That might be a pretty fun deck to build, though, w/High Tide and maybe something else.

    Thanks for the ideas!
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      CommentAuthorfrogger42
    • CommentTimeDec 13th 2011
     
    Shazaam, it's up! Enjoy!
  1.  
    Running all this other janky protection and not Duress or FoW.

    Sunscape Familiar. Sunscape Familiar. Sunscape Familiar.

    How about a Hurk, a Chain, a Rebuild, and a Truth for "Bounce that --> Draw7" or "Bounce all my moxes. Replay. Desire."

    BALANCE FFS.

    On a positive note, Infernal Tutor seems better in this build than in others.
  2.  
    Stroke is also not a beating with Desire...or Halls. Maybe Opportunity there.

    Rector's got options in this one...Halls, Bargain, CadBloom, Sight. Probably cut it down to just Sight.

    I don't get Dryad Arbor...

    Jeweled Bird is slightly better than usual in this deck because it's draw your deck with Salvagers/Lotus going.

    Land Grant = meh.
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      CommentAuthorfrogger42
    • CommentTimeDec 16th 2011
     
    Arbor used to be pretty hot b/c of Culling the Weak/ Diabolic Intent. The only other interaction it's got now is Green Pact -> pitch Dryad for Mox Diamond. So pretty limited at this point, the guy's probably going to get the axe.
    Land Grant?? Pretty hot, I'd say. It's a stormable land, and imprints to Chrome Mox if you need the mana now. Still Mox Diamond fodder, for that matter.

    Jeweled Bird + Salvagers works if you've got 2 of them. But 1 mana -> 1 flexible draw isn't that bad, considering Vamp Tutor and the like; also helps get around the discard from Draw 7s, depending on the hand, you might want to "store" the draw after Contract. Also, my buddy anted up Lotus once... erm, gg.

    Stroke was there with Channel -> a more tutorable Yawg Bargain. It's just another option, but pretty weaksauce on its own.

    Hurk doesn't seem that great to me, considering a lot of the moxen are bad ones, and you're lucky to come across a real one (Crystal included) in a game. Just smells like deadness to me. And Mind's Desire is only 4 cards out of the deck; it allows for crazy 20-40 storm count, but consider it really a kind of tutor for Grapeshot or Tendrils or something. Likely Truth is a good tutor target, though.

    Rector might have to go. Also in there for the same reason as Dryad Arbor. Enlightened seems a better option at this point.

    Duress... idk. It's great, but a lot of the Draw 7s are 2-sided; Autumn's Veil almost always requires some sort of counter to it, which means they'll have to tap 2 mana to stop it (unless FoW is in hand), which is totally fine. That means with 2-3 mana available on your opponent's field, they only really have 1 counter available to them, regardless of how many are in hand. And they have to spend it on stopping the Chant. Playing against it as control, I have to read my cards very carefully (Mana Drain vs Shadow of Doubt vs Mindcensor are very different, depending on Chant/ Abeyance/ Veil) and usually my option is: throw a Shadow if I'm lucky to have it, let Chant resolve, cross fingers for a fizzle. I'd let Duress hit me any time, even if it takes Ancestral or Contract, because the counter usually yields the same CA and much much better tempo.
    Basically, this deck has to go off before your opponent's T4, when they get mana for 2 counters available to them. So the cards have to be quick enough to do that.
    I only include Mana Drain because it's also a ritual. FoW is probably unnecessary, and I'd rather have more draw into gas. Counters I find are better for "engine-based" storm, where you need to resolve High Tide or your turn is over.

    Sunscape's a 0/3, right? Boltable dude... but worth a shot. Might replace Abeyance. I'll have to ask my buddy to playtest that guy. Thanks!
    •  
      CommentAuthorfrogger42
    • CommentTimeDec 16th 2011 edited
     
    And updated the list:
    + 3x nonU, nonW duals (+9)
    + 40th fetch (+1)

    - Skirk Prosp x4
    Dream Halls 1
    Stroke 1
    Academy Rector 1
    Transmute Arti 1
    Fabricate 1
    Dryad Arbor 1

    Gotta count, see if it's 300...

    EDIT: Counted, short one. Threw in Dim Returns x1
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      CommentAuthorDipstik
    • CommentTimeDec 16th 2011
     
    re: sunscape familiar

    I'm not endorsing him, but he does block 2 power creatures (which aggro runs LOTS of) all day long. I'd never be happy wasting a bolt on him, either.
    •  
      CommentAuthorIllusions-Go
    • CommentTimeDec 16th 2011 edited
     
    Posted By: frogger42Land Grant?? Pretty hot, I'd say. It's a stormable land, and imprints to Chrome Mox if you need the mana now. Still Mox Diamond fodder, for that matter.


    Ship the grip in exchange for a Forest land? Pfft. Horrible deal. If they counter the right thing you're dead in the water. It's not like you're going Land Grant, Lyrist, Priest, Rofellos, Hermit, Collective Unconscious every game.

    Every colored spell in the deck imprints Chrome Mox, that's not an argument for anything.

    Posted By: frogger42Jeweled Bird + Salvagers works if you've got 2 of them. But 1 mana -> 1 flexible draw isn't that bad, considering Vamp Tutor and the like; also helps get around the discard from Draw 7s, depending on the hand, you might want to "store" the draw after Contract. Also, my buddy anted up Lotus once... erm, gg.


    Yup that's a pretty key interaction with the Mirage Block Tutors and JBird. I mean, you're playing the most electrifying format in Magic, draw something cool on a JBird and put 'em in your deck.

    Posted By: frogger42Stroke was there with Channel -> a more tutorable Yawg Bargain. It's just another option, but pretty weaksauce on its own.


    4x Channel is something I haven't tried or seen tried. Maybe it's brakes maybe it's gas. YMMV.


    Posted By: frogger42Hurk doesn't seem that great to me, considering a lot of the moxen are bad ones, and you're lucky to come across a real one (Crystal included) in a game. Just smells like deadness to me. And Mind's Desire is only 4 cards out of the deck; it allows for crazy 20-40 storm count, but consider it really a kind of tutor for Grapeshot or Tendrils or something. Likely Truth is a good tutor target, though.


    Mind's Desire is how to realistically win on Turn 4.

    Posted By: frogger42Rector might have to go. Also in there for the same reason as Dryad Arbor. Enlightened seems a better option at this point.


    ET is an auto-include. Get's the Lotus and Ring...which is bombtastic for a white card.

    Posted By: frogger42Sunscape's a 0/3, right? Boltable dude... but worth a shot. Might replace Abeyance. I'll have to ask my buddy to playtest that guy. Thanks!


    That's the spirit.
    •  
      CommentAuthorfrogger42
    • CommentTimeDec 17th 2011
     
    I just realized Sunscape helps U and G, not U and B (blanked on him, never really played the guy). I counted and he only helps about 30 cards in the deck; 1/10 of the deck is cheaper. Ideally, I'd include the Black Familiar, who cheapens about 60 cards, or 1/5 of the deck (which might be the minimum to consider, statistically pays back a bit to 1 card in hand). I'll still playtest him, but it might be too small a ratio of cards to interact with... nerts.
  3.  
    Hey frogger email me if you want to playtest on MWS.
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      CommentAuthorfrogger42
    • CommentTimeDec 20th 2011
     
    Sure, just emailed you. Forgot to mention: I don't use MWS anymore, is Cockatrice good for you? (My email's dwaynehoover, prolly in your spam). Later,
    -Matt
    •  
      CommentAuthorDipstik
    • CommentTimeDec 20th 2011
     
    If you type someone's username into the box that says "Whisper your comments to" it will only be visible to that person.
    •  
      CommentAuthorIllusions-Go
    • CommentTimeDec 20th 2011 edited
     
    Yea, expect an email tonight around 8pm PST...ish...depending on how difficult "Cockatrice" is to setup and if I can import MWS decklists directly...and all that jazz.

    /offtopic

    Consider 4x Dragonstorm 4x Kokusho 1x Bladewing Teh Risen. The build is very threat-light as it currently stands. 3 Spells, Dragonstorm, GG is another way.
  4.  
    BUMP.
    •  
      CommentAuthorIllusions-Go
    • CommentTimeJun 29th 2012 edited
     
    Posted By: frogger42Duress... idk. It's great, but a lot of the Draw 7s are 2-sided; Autumn's Veil almost always requires some sort of counter to it, which means they'll have to tap 2 mana to stop it (unless FoW is in hand), which is totally fine. That means with 2-3 mana available on your opponent's field, they only really have 1 counter available to them, regardless of how many are in hand. And they have to spend it on stopping the Chant. Playing against it as control, I have to read my cards very carefully (Mana Drain vs Shadow of Doubt vs Mindcensor are very different, depending on Chant/ Abeyance/ Veil) and usually my option is: throw a Shadow if I'm lucky to have it, let Chant resolve, cross fingers for a fizzle. I'd let Duress hit me any time, even if it takes Ancestral or Contract, because the counter usually yields the same CA and much much better tempo.


    Duress is even better with Draw 7s in your deck and can be used offensively and defensively.

    IMO this deck is doing 3 things wrong:

    1) Running too much Red, not enough Blue.

    2) Running the bad protection and ignoring the good. (Abolisher/Veil vs. FoW/Duress)

    3) Playing borderline chaff like Land Grant, Squandered Resources and LD Vault...etc.
    •  
      CommentAuthorfrogger42
    • CommentTimeJul 3rd 2012
     
    The problem with blue cards is they cost blue mana to play. When WotC prints a blue ritual (and, no, High Tide is not one) then I'll consider it. As is, paying U is enough of a pain, let alone trying to Gush offa two islands. Which you'd rather have any other color than White.
    I'm sticking w/o Duress. Veils are the right call here. I don't want to keep throwing Duresses at my opp every time I draw-7. Eats mana.
    Land Grant's fine. LD Vault's okay, not optimal, but it sets up better than the U cantrips. Squ Resc isn't great, but that weird Urza's card that lets you sac a land for B seems better. There's prob something a bit better than that, too.
  5.  
    Posted By: frogger42The problem with blue cards is they cost blue mana to play.


    T-O-L-A-R-I-A-N A-C-A-D-E-M-Y

    +

    F-R-A-N-T-I-C S-E-A-R-C-H
    •  
      CommentAuthorfrogger42
    • CommentTimeJul 3rd 2012
     
    Awesome. Now all I need to do is draw the Academy, and then draw the Frantic Search to play all my blue cantrips while I'm storming (instead of playing rituals). Sounds like a plan.
    Just updated it a moment ago, but it's too much a pain to type it up.
    •  
      CommentAuthorIllusions-Go
    • CommentTimeJul 3rd 2012 edited
     
    Scrying, Rotate, ReapSow, Expedition Map, DT, VT, Weathered Wayfarer.

    GL HF.

    (Interested in seeing the updated list too)

    EDIT: Aha there's Tolaria West too...but I'm pretty sure it's awful. YMMV.
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      CommentAuthorfrogger42
    • CommentTimeJul 4th 2012
     
    Tol West as land... meh. Tol West as setup for next turn = the stone cold nuts. Replaces the mana investment at a minimum during Turn:Storm, dunno how you're cold on it. Bonkers when you put out a 2/4 for 4 mana, too.
    The deck doesn't particularly like to drop lands past T4, you're much better off drawing a rit than another land. Makes hellbent a b**** to get off, no need to clutter it with mana sources that don't come out of your hand.
    •  
      CommentAuthorfrogger42
    • CommentTimeJul 4th 2012
     
    Also dug out a 1/1 for 2 mana. Never played the dude in my life, and I'm 85% certain he's total walking misery to my opp in this deck. I think it'll be fun to get the dude a-working for once in his miserable banned little life. Can't wait!
  6.  
    That comment made me think of Xantid Swarm for some reason - another possible for the storm deck.

    That 1/1 for 2 mana is a mystery...Goblin Recruiter (lol)? I have no idea.